everyone dogging GM?
09-29-2004, 06:10 PM
#1
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everyone ******* GM?
Everyone on here seems to have some hatred for GM because they might or might not bring back the camaro. People saying GM is "self destructing" "GM will never be at the top". I thought GM was doing pretty good, don't they own numerous auto companies? and GMAC?
TONY
TONY
09-29-2004, 06:38 PM
#2
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Re: everyone ******* GM?
Originally Posted by toneloc12345
Everyone on here seems to have some hatred for GM because they might or might not bring back the camaro. People saying GM is "self destructing" "GM will never be at the top". I thought GM was doing pretty good, don't they own numerous auto companies? and GMAC?
TONY
TONY
09-29-2004, 06:41 PM
#3
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Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
Re: everyone ******* GM?
I guess you feel that everything is peachy at GM.
It's true that GM is the world's biggest automaker, and has divisions in Germany, England, and Australia as well as essentially owning Daewoo and have set up shop in China.
BUT... GM's losing market share, their heavily discounted cars and incentives have given them a reputation of being the automotive equivlent of K-Mart, their employee pension & health care costs are eating them alive, it still takes GM 4+ years to get a car to market while everyone else have gotten their time down to 3 years or less, GM is still recovering from the group of senior managers who ran the car side of the business into the dirt by looking at cars as appliences, and at the current moment, outside of the GTO (which GM brought over from Australia) General Motors has not one affordable performance car that isn't a FWD, 4 door version of a car they have been selling for 7-8 years.
BTW: Did you know that much smaller automakers, Ford & Chrysler, make greater profits than GM, despite selling far fewer cars?
GM has no SVT or SRT, Chevrolet's "SS" is stuck on everything from V6 Impalas to extended cab pickup trucks, GM sat on their collective butts naysaying the possibility of making the Cadillac Cien, meanwhile, the much smaller Ford Motor Company produces the Ford GT, and is actually making enough money to support production and earn a small profit. Ford made a commitment to the Mustang that GM refused to do, going so far as to even creating a chassis while GM cancelled Camaro's development on Sigma & dragging their feet on Zeta.
In GM's defense, they do have alot of great stuff in the pipeline, they are getting their act together on quality (after all these years), they rediscovered the car (now that truck sales have flattened), and they are making a very real effort to bring back RWD to the masses.
But GM has done some boneheaded things the past decade as far as enthusiasts and car lovers are concerned. Killing the B-body to use the plant to make even more trucks. Killing the F-body (not just the 4th gen, which was in double overtime to begin with, but the whole car). Producing the Silverado SS and defending it with that sad line about sales (ironically, the truck sold no where near projections) while Ford & Dodge essentially stomped them in performance & Lightning in sales.
In short, GM has a pretty good future as far as performance goes, but their recent past is pathetic, they currently are pretty dull. The Solstice, which was ramrodded at warp speed through by Vice Chairman Lutz himself, still is taking 4 years to get to market.
GM has serious issues, and it doesn't center around the Camaro & Firebird, either. We WANT good things from the General. But we are frustrated that GM just doesn't seem to deliver the goods as quickly as everyone else.
It's true that GM is the world's biggest automaker, and has divisions in Germany, England, and Australia as well as essentially owning Daewoo and have set up shop in China.
BUT... GM's losing market share, their heavily discounted cars and incentives have given them a reputation of being the automotive equivlent of K-Mart, their employee pension & health care costs are eating them alive, it still takes GM 4+ years to get a car to market while everyone else have gotten their time down to 3 years or less, GM is still recovering from the group of senior managers who ran the car side of the business into the dirt by looking at cars as appliences, and at the current moment, outside of the GTO (which GM brought over from Australia) General Motors has not one affordable performance car that isn't a FWD, 4 door version of a car they have been selling for 7-8 years.
BTW: Did you know that much smaller automakers, Ford & Chrysler, make greater profits than GM, despite selling far fewer cars?
GM has no SVT or SRT, Chevrolet's "SS" is stuck on everything from V6 Impalas to extended cab pickup trucks, GM sat on their collective butts naysaying the possibility of making the Cadillac Cien, meanwhile, the much smaller Ford Motor Company produces the Ford GT, and is actually making enough money to support production and earn a small profit. Ford made a commitment to the Mustang that GM refused to do, going so far as to even creating a chassis while GM cancelled Camaro's development on Sigma & dragging their feet on Zeta.
In GM's defense, they do have alot of great stuff in the pipeline, they are getting their act together on quality (after all these years), they rediscovered the car (now that truck sales have flattened), and they are making a very real effort to bring back RWD to the masses.
But GM has done some boneheaded things the past decade as far as enthusiasts and car lovers are concerned. Killing the B-body to use the plant to make even more trucks. Killing the F-body (not just the 4th gen, which was in double overtime to begin with, but the whole car). Producing the Silverado SS and defending it with that sad line about sales (ironically, the truck sold no where near projections) while Ford & Dodge essentially stomped them in performance & Lightning in sales.
In short, GM has a pretty good future as far as performance goes, but their recent past is pathetic, they currently are pretty dull. The Solstice, which was ramrodded at warp speed through by Vice Chairman Lutz himself, still is taking 4 years to get to market.
GM has serious issues, and it doesn't center around the Camaro & Firebird, either. We WANT good things from the General. But we are frustrated that GM just doesn't seem to deliver the goods as quickly as everyone else.
09-29-2004, 07:17 PM
#4
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Join Date: May 2004
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Re: everyone ******* GM?
That was a very good post. Where do you find out ford makes more of a profit than GM etc...? Doesn't gm deal with honda too? i think they build duramaxes for them.
TONY
TONY
09-29-2004, 07:29 PM
#5
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Location: Pewee Valley, KY
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Re: everyone ******* GM?
Originally Posted by toneloc12345
That was a very good post. Where do you find out ford makes more of a profit than GM etc...? Doesn't gm deal with honda too? i think they build duramaxes for them.
TONY
TONY
09-30-2004, 10:23 AM
#6
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Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Middle of Kansas
Posts: 2,688
Re: everyone ******* GM?
This is well spoken.
Originally Posted by guionM
I guess you feel that everything is peachy at GM.
It's true that GM is the world's biggest automaker, and has divisions in Germany, England, and Australia as well as essentially owning Daewoo and have set up shop in China.
BUT... GM's losing market share, their heavily discounted cars and incentives have given them a reputation of being the automotive equivlent of K-Mart, their employee pension & health care costs are eating them alive, it still takes GM 4+ years to get a car to market while everyone else have gotten their time down to 3 years or less, GM is still recovering from the group of senior managers who ran the car side of the business into the dirt by looking at cars as appliences, and at the current moment, outside of the GTO (which GM brought over from Australia) General Motors has not one affordable performance car that isn't a FWD, 4 door version of a car they have been selling for 7-8 years.
BTW: Did you know that much smaller automakers, Ford & Chrysler, make greater profits than GM, despite selling far fewer cars?
GM has no SVT or SRT, Chevrolet's "SS" is stuck on everything from V6 Impalas to extended cab pickup trucks, GM sat on their collective butts naysaying the possibility of making the Cadillac Cien, meanwhile, the much smaller Ford Motor Company produces the Ford GT, and is actually making enough money to support production and earn a small profit. Ford made a commitment to the Mustang that GM refused to do, going so far as to even creating a chassis while GM cancelled Camaro's development on Sigma & dragging their feet on Zeta.
In GM's defense, they do have alot of great stuff in the pipeline, they are getting their act together on quality (after all these years), they rediscovered the car (now that truck sales have flattened), and they are making a very real effort to bring back RWD to the masses.
But GM has done some boneheaded things the past decade as far as enthusiasts and car lovers are concerned. Killing the B-body to use the plant to make even more trucks. Killing the F-body (not just the 4th gen, which was in double overtime to begin with, but the whole car). Producing the Silverado SS and defending it with that sad line about sales (ironically, the truck sold no where near projections) while Ford & Dodge essentially stomped them in performance & Lightning in sales.
In short, GM has a pretty good future as far as performance goes, but their recent past is pathetic, they currently are pretty dull. The Solstice, which was ramrodded at warp speed through by Vice Chairman Lutz himself, still is taking 4 years to get to market.
GM has serious issues, and it doesn't center around the Camaro & Firebird, either. We WANT good things from the General. But we are frustrated that GM just doesn't seem to deliver the goods as quickly as everyone else.
It's true that GM is the world's biggest automaker, and has divisions in Germany, England, and Australia as well as essentially owning Daewoo and have set up shop in China.
BUT... GM's losing market share, their heavily discounted cars and incentives have given them a reputation of being the automotive equivlent of K-Mart, their employee pension & health care costs are eating them alive, it still takes GM 4+ years to get a car to market while everyone else have gotten their time down to 3 years or less, GM is still recovering from the group of senior managers who ran the car side of the business into the dirt by looking at cars as appliences, and at the current moment, outside of the GTO (which GM brought over from Australia) General Motors has not one affordable performance car that isn't a FWD, 4 door version of a car they have been selling for 7-8 years.
BTW: Did you know that much smaller automakers, Ford & Chrysler, make greater profits than GM, despite selling far fewer cars?
GM has no SVT or SRT, Chevrolet's "SS" is stuck on everything from V6 Impalas to extended cab pickup trucks, GM sat on their collective butts naysaying the possibility of making the Cadillac Cien, meanwhile, the much smaller Ford Motor Company produces the Ford GT, and is actually making enough money to support production and earn a small profit. Ford made a commitment to the Mustang that GM refused to do, going so far as to even creating a chassis while GM cancelled Camaro's development on Sigma & dragging their feet on Zeta.
In GM's defense, they do have alot of great stuff in the pipeline, they are getting their act together on quality (after all these years), they rediscovered the car (now that truck sales have flattened), and they are making a very real effort to bring back RWD to the masses.
But GM has done some boneheaded things the past decade as far as enthusiasts and car lovers are concerned. Killing the B-body to use the plant to make even more trucks. Killing the F-body (not just the 4th gen, which was in double overtime to begin with, but the whole car). Producing the Silverado SS and defending it with that sad line about sales (ironically, the truck sold no where near projections) while Ford & Dodge essentially stomped them in performance & Lightning in sales.
In short, GM has a pretty good future as far as performance goes, but their recent past is pathetic, they currently are pretty dull. The Solstice, which was ramrodded at warp speed through by Vice Chairman Lutz himself, still is taking 4 years to get to market.
GM has serious issues, and it doesn't center around the Camaro & Firebird, either. We WANT good things from the General. But we are frustrated that GM just doesn't seem to deliver the goods as quickly as everyone else.
09-30-2004, 10:59 AM
#8
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Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: OR
Posts: 2,368
Re: everyone ******* GM?
My GM Brand Loyalty has been fading.. Only reason it hasn't competely disappeared is cause a few traces of life: C6, CTSv, STS, XLR, GTO, Malibu..
These supposidly next wave of new cars coming out in the near future is either going to make and break it for me.. They have to be the total package.
These supposidly next wave of new cars coming out in the near future is either going to make and break it for me.. They have to be the total package.
09-30-2004, 12:32 PM
#9
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Jersey Shore
Posts: 4,306
Re: everyone ******* GM?
You have to understand that everyone here bashes GM because of there apparent lack off attention for enthusiasts, or so everyone here says.
I dont see the need to bash GM. They have several great "enthusiast" cars as well as several great everyday cars coming.
With more new cars coming out of the car factories and into show rooms, we will see who ends up on top.
If you want to think of it like this...DCX has had 3 very successful cars: SRT4,Magnum and 300.
And Ford...Ford has 2 cars that look to be the lead of this "Year of the Car". The Mustang and the GT. The 500 and crew all seem to be having a lot of problems.
But if you look at all that, all the cars I mentioned are "enthusiast" driven cars. Hemi sedans and wagons, 550hp super cars and 300hp pony cars.
If you look at it, No one is pushing the kind of product out now like GM. So take all this hate on GM with a grain of salt. A lot of people on here are still upset with GM for killing many of the icons.
If you want to talk about age...How long does it take Ford to come out with a rebadge Mazda 6? It sounds like it wont be here till MY06, which would make that 3 years. Its not like Ford had to create the chassis, wait for engine production, and create a plant, unlike the Solstice.
"But Ford got the GT done in 18 months!!" Yeah...when you throw MILLIONS AND MILLIONS..perhaps Billions of money into a program, as well as tons of manpower to develop something that is the "Pace Car for a Comapny", things tend to get done faster.
I dont see the need to bash GM. They have several great "enthusiast" cars as well as several great everyday cars coming.
With more new cars coming out of the car factories and into show rooms, we will see who ends up on top.
If you want to think of it like this...DCX has had 3 very successful cars: SRT4,Magnum and 300.
And Ford...Ford has 2 cars that look to be the lead of this "Year of the Car". The Mustang and the GT. The 500 and crew all seem to be having a lot of problems.
But if you look at all that, all the cars I mentioned are "enthusiast" driven cars. Hemi sedans and wagons, 550hp super cars and 300hp pony cars.
If you look at it, No one is pushing the kind of product out now like GM. So take all this hate on GM with a grain of salt. A lot of people on here are still upset with GM for killing many of the icons.
If you want to talk about age...How long does it take Ford to come out with a rebadge Mazda 6? It sounds like it wont be here till MY06, which would make that 3 years. Its not like Ford had to create the chassis, wait for engine production, and create a plant, unlike the Solstice.
"But Ford got the GT done in 18 months!!" Yeah...when you throw MILLIONS AND MILLIONS..perhaps Billions of money into a program, as well as tons of manpower to develop something that is the "Pace Car for a Comapny", things tend to get done faster.
10-01-2004, 09:51 AM
#10
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Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 189
Re: everyone ******* GM?
In short, GM has a pretty good future as far as performance goes, but their recent past is pathetic, they currently are pretty dull. The Solstice, which was ramrodded at warp speed through by Vice Chairman Lutz himself, still is taking 4 years to get to market.
GM has serious issues, and it doesn't center around the Camaro & Firebird, either. We WANT good things from the General. But we are frustrated that GM just doesn't seem to deliver the goods as quickly as everyone else.
GM has serious issues, and it doesn't center around the Camaro & Firebird, either. We WANT good things from the General. But we are frustrated that GM just doesn't seem to deliver the goods as quickly as everyone else.
People want to feel connected to something like a vehicle, if they don't, they buy elsewhere. I bought a brand new 2002 Nissan Altima a few years ago and probably would have considered GM if they offered anything of interest.
GM ---HAS--- to get it together. I'm sorry to sound "bashing" but come on... a company with like 80+ years of car sales under its belt should be able to produce a line of cars that consists of something better than the Malibu, Cobalt, and Impala... oh, lets not forget teh Aveo.
I don't count the Vette because its not like the average person can afford such a car, nor can fit more than 2 in, so its not really part of the lineup for me. People living in the real world are only being offered the ho-hum lineup from GM.
Look at Pontiac for example. The GA GT has never been anything special. Mostly an appearance package, with minor performance addons. Look at the GTP, while its got a newer look and still a SC V6, its still an old body and a powerplant that has been around in some form or another for a WHILE now. Switch it up a bit already! Its just crazy how long some of these body styles last with GM. The GP body has been around since 97... thats almost 8 model years! Look at the Cavalier... 95-04... 9 years! Look at Honda. Sorry to say it, but they are selling cars and have a following both for reliability and the tuner crowd. Look at the Civic: 92-95, 95-00, 01-05. The accord. 90-93, 94-97, 98-01 or something along those lines... Never the same thing twice... Its like food - Can you eat the same thing every day for 9 years and still be excited about it?
Make something exciting. Look at Nissan for example. Look at their lineup. The entry level Senta, avail in VSpec config, the Altima, available with a stout V6, and the Maxima with just about as much power from a V6 as the Lt1 gave us in the Z28! They still have their 350Z for sports, but in any model you look at, there is something for the everyday driver and something for the enthousiast..
COME ON GM - DO SOMETHING BEFORE YOU HAVE _NO_ MARKETSHARE!
FYI - If any of you think we are complaning, you're d@mn right! I'm tired of seeing my brand repeatedly let me down. I have been faithful to this brand almost my entire life and I am sick of seeing it go down the tubes. I'm tired of seeing it fading away and tired of seeing its pathetic offerings to the public. Its irritating. Its like the genius in school that never did the work. So much potential, just wasted. AHHHHH... <breathe>
Last edited by Dante93GTZ; 10-01-2004 at 10:03 AM.
10-01-2004, 12:07 PM
#13
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Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 189
Re: everyone ******* GM?
Originally Posted by Gold_Rush
*puts on rosy glasses and blinders*GM is the best....none should EVER complain about or criticize them
.
jokes aside, GM is doing pretty well, but they still dissapoint at times.
.jokes aside, GM is doing pretty well, but they still dissapoint at times.
10-01-2004, 12:22 PM
#15
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,870
Re: everyone ******* GM?
Originally Posted by Dante93GTZ
If GM's doing "well", I'd love to see what a successful car company is going these days...