Does Camaro even have a chance against the Mustang?
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
The Camaro does have a ceiling, but you have to understand that it is a pretty high one. So now the new SS or Z28 can't go over around 400 rated horses(and more likeliy higher)..........not too bad. I don't think the whole Corvette ceiling has been a problem or will be a problem.
The Camaro does have a ceiling, but you have to understand that it is a pretty high one. So now the new SS or Z28 can't go over around 400 rated horses(and more likeliy higher)..........not too bad. I don't think the whole Corvette ceiling has been a problem or will be a problem.
I was not only referring to the HP ceiling you eluded to, I was refering to the whole picture of Vette v. Camaro. The heritage, history, status, halo car, etc. If the same people are responsible for the development and evolution of both, don't you think the halo car is gonna get preferential treatment over the "econo-racer"? Honestly?
Now I'm not acusing anyone on Team Corvette of doing anything wrong. I'm just saying that if I were on a team and was given a fixed amount of money to develop both my cars, I'd be damn sure I had the halo car done right first, then worry with the "other one" using what resources I had left. I think anyone would - it's called "saving face".
But this is largely what I think was wrong with the old system too. That's why I commented on the two-cars, two-teams approach. Give 1 team responsibility for the success of one car and I promise that the team will fight hard to do everything they can to ensure their success (and thereby the car's too).
Indeed, the way Camaro existed, it had more issues to worry about that it's perceived HP ceiling. It couldn't be better-looking than the Vette, more technically advanced than the Vette, as costly as the Vette, etc., etc.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,504
From: Ohio
Originally posted by ProudPony
Agreed, but I see it as being a little more complex than you have indicated.
I was not only referring to the HP ceiling you eluded to, I was refering to the whole picture of Vette v. Camaro. The heritage, history, status, halo car, etc. If the same people are responsible for the development and evolution of both, don't you think the halo car is gonna get preferential treatment over the "econo-racer"? Honestly?
Now I'm not acusing anyone on Team Corvette of doing anything wrong. I'm just saying that if I were on a team and was given a fixed amount of money to develop both my cars, I'd be damn sure I had the halo car done right first, then worry with the "other one" using what resources I had left. I think anyone would - it's called "saving face".
But this is largely what I think was wrong with the old system too. That's why I commented on the two-cars, two-teams approach. Give 1 team responsibility for the success of one car and I promise that the team will fight hard to do everything they can to ensure their success (and thereby the car's too).
Indeed, the way Camaro existed, it had more issues to worry about that it's perceived HP ceiling. It couldn't be better-looking than the Vette, more technically advanced than the Vette, as costly as the Vette, etc., etc.
Agreed, but I see it as being a little more complex than you have indicated.
I was not only referring to the HP ceiling you eluded to, I was refering to the whole picture of Vette v. Camaro. The heritage, history, status, halo car, etc. If the same people are responsible for the development and evolution of both, don't you think the halo car is gonna get preferential treatment over the "econo-racer"? Honestly?
Now I'm not acusing anyone on Team Corvette of doing anything wrong. I'm just saying that if I were on a team and was given a fixed amount of money to develop both my cars, I'd be damn sure I had the halo car done right first, then worry with the "other one" using what resources I had left. I think anyone would - it's called "saving face".
But this is largely what I think was wrong with the old system too. That's why I commented on the two-cars, two-teams approach. Give 1 team responsibility for the success of one car and I promise that the team will fight hard to do everything they can to ensure their success (and thereby the car's too).
Indeed, the way Camaro existed, it had more issues to worry about that it's perceived HP ceiling. It couldn't be better-looking than the Vette, more technically advanced than the Vette, as costly as the Vette, etc., etc.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 1,873
From: South Jersey
Originally posted by ProudPony
Look at WERM and his Bullitt - there are a couple sites dedicated to bullitt cars alone. The Mach 1 registry is hotter than BON right now - all about mach 1 stuff. SVT sites are buzzing with '03 cobra tweeks and mods already. Saleen has his own cult following, as does Steeda, Brown, Roush and others.
The fact is that each person with one of these special cars simply can't get enough of them. And there is an instant "brotherhood" when you go to a show or race and see another "special" model. I went to a cruise-in at Nascar Cafe a few weeks back, and 2 Saleen guys (they were friends) came straight over to me and asked "Is that a Highway Patrol car?" They wanted to know every little detail about my '91 SSP. I then wanted to see their new Saleens, and reciprocated their solicitation for facts, specs, and trivia. We talked for a half-hour, and had never met one-another prior to that.
There seems to be an unwritten rule about respecting each others cars for what they are. Nobody really cares whose is faster or lower. They just appreciate them as they are. But the uniqueness is what sets them apart, and I think that the uniqueness that comes with Mach 1, Bullitt, Boss, Pony, GT, different wheels, different colors, etc are a large part of what is fueling the Mustang's success. Camaro will need to offer diversification and appeal to the wide masses if it is going to come back strong.
Look at WERM and his Bullitt - there are a couple sites dedicated to bullitt cars alone. The Mach 1 registry is hotter than BON right now - all about mach 1 stuff. SVT sites are buzzing with '03 cobra tweeks and mods already. Saleen has his own cult following, as does Steeda, Brown, Roush and others.
The fact is that each person with one of these special cars simply can't get enough of them. And there is an instant "brotherhood" when you go to a show or race and see another "special" model. I went to a cruise-in at Nascar Cafe a few weeks back, and 2 Saleen guys (they were friends) came straight over to me and asked "Is that a Highway Patrol car?" They wanted to know every little detail about my '91 SSP. I then wanted to see their new Saleens, and reciprocated their solicitation for facts, specs, and trivia. We talked for a half-hour, and had never met one-another prior to that.
There seems to be an unwritten rule about respecting each others cars for what they are. Nobody really cares whose is faster or lower. They just appreciate them as they are. But the uniqueness is what sets them apart, and I think that the uniqueness that comes with Mach 1, Bullitt, Boss, Pony, GT, different wheels, different colors, etc are a large part of what is fueling the Mustang's success. Camaro will need to offer diversification and appeal to the wide masses if it is going to come back strong.
BTW, I love my Bullitt Mustang. I like owning a car that looks so much better than most other Mustangs, but does it softly, subtly (and affordably!). No, its not the fastest, and many people don't understand it, but in the end it makes it all the more appealing. Like proudpony mentioned - its uniqness was a great selling point and is why I bought a Mustang in the first place. Now, If I can find a way to make my car different from the other 3040 DHG Bullitts....
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,597
From: oshawa,ontario,canada
Originally posted by WERM
Hey, don't look at me. BTW, I love my Bullitt Mustang. I like owning a car that looks so much better than most other Mustangs, but does it softly, subtly (and affordably!). No, its not the fastest, and many people don't understand it, but in the end it makes it all the more appealing. Like proudpony mentioned - its uniqness was a great selling point and is why I bought a Mustang in the first place. Now, If I can find a way to make my car different from the other 3040 DHG Bullitts....
Hey, don't look at me.
BTW, I love my Bullitt Mustang. I like owning a car that looks so much better than most other Mustangs, but does it softly, subtly (and affordably!). No, its not the fastest, and many people don't understand it, but in the end it makes it all the more appealing. Like proudpony mentioned - its uniqness was a great selling point and is why I bought a Mustang in the first place. Now, If I can find a way to make my car different from the other 3040 DHG Bullitts....
I hate cleaning black anyways
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
Originally posted by Darth Xed
As much as I love Corvette... I would perfer that Camaro had it's own team as well (Headed by Mr. S!) ... from what I hear, you are very very close to nailing a bullseye in everything you've said.
As much as I love Corvette... I would perfer that Camaro had it's own team as well (Headed by Mr. S!) ... from what I hear, you are very very close to nailing a bullseye in everything you've said.
I think Camaro will do far better with a team of it's own representing it's every move. Again, a dedicated team will not be apt to "let it slide" or "overlook" some details due to priority on another model. That team would be judged solely on the success or failure of their respective model, making them more accountable IMO.
PS - I too think S. S. would be a great candidate to head the team. And maybe he could get a few of you guys in here to be his "digital-assistants"!
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
Re: I hate cleaning black anyways
Originally posted by WERM
The "real" Bullitts are Dark Highland Green. Besides, there were lots of black 2001 Mustangs, but only 3041 in DHG.
The "real" Bullitts are Dark Highland Green.
Besides, there were lots of black 2001 Mustangs, but only 3041 in DHG.
HE"S DOING IT RIGHT NOW!!!
This is the kind of sh1+ that Mustang people get a rock for...
"Mine is 1 of 12 made on that day that had square steering wheels."
"Oh how neat! Well mine is 1 of 73 that came with headlight defrosters that year!"
"Cool! What color-code is yours?"
"Code 85 - Tangerine Orange, and it's factory too."
"Cool deal!"
Like WERM said, speed ain't everything to this crowd of car guys. In fact, it is often not even a significant issue at all. It's the car, what makes it unique, and how the owner relates to the car's uniqueness.
Camaro will HAVE to have this to be a grand-slam.
That's all there is to it.
PS - I actually DO have a code 85, factory Tangerine Orange Mustang!
Last edited by ProudPony; Mar 5, 2003 at 07:30 PM.
Re: Re: I love cleaning black anyways
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,121
From: Houston
Originally posted by ProudPony
PS - I too think S. S. would be a great candidate to head the team. And maybe he could get a few of you guys in here to be his "digital-assistants"!
PS - I too think S. S. would be a great candidate to head the team. And maybe he could get a few of you guys in here to be his "digital-assistants"!
Where is he BTW, I havent seen a post by him in a few weeks. I'm going to be at the Dallas Auto Show in 3 weeks and would like to shake hands with him if all possible. Didn't he say he was going to be in Dallas?
Registered User
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 1,873
From: South Jersey
Actually, I have one of 2873..
Originally posted by ProudPony
[B]YOU SEE!!!!!
HE"S DOING IT RIGHT NOW!!!
This is the kind of sh1+ that Mustang people get a rock for...
"Mine is 1 of 12 made on that day that had square steering wheels."
"Oh how neat! Well mine is 1 of 73 that came with headlight defrosters that year!"
"Cool! What color-code is yours?"
"Code 85 - Tangerine Orange, and it's factory too."
"Cool deal!"
Like WERM said, speed ain't everything to this crowd of car guys. In fact, it is often not even a significant issue at all. It's the car, what makes it unique, and how the owner relates to the car's uniqueness.
[B]YOU SEE!!!!!
HE"S DOING IT RIGHT NOW!!!
This is the kind of sh1+ that Mustang people get a rock for...
"Mine is 1 of 12 made on that day that had square steering wheels."
"Oh how neat! Well mine is 1 of 73 that came with headlight defrosters that year!"
"Cool! What color-code is yours?"
"Code 85 - Tangerine Orange, and it's factory too."
"Cool deal!"
Like WERM said, speed ain't everything to this crowd of car guys. In fact, it is often not even a significant issue at all. It's the car, what makes it unique, and how the owner relates to the car's uniqueness.
Total 2001 Mustangs Produced (e.g, includes standard models, GTs, Bullitts and Cobras): 163,818.
Total 2001 Bullitts Produced: 5582.
% of 2001 Mustangs that are Bullitts: 3.41%.
Total Dark Highland Green 2001 Bullitts Produced: 3041.
% of 2001 Bullitts that are Dark Highland Green: 54.5%
% of 2001 Mustangs that are Dark Highland Green Bullitts: 1.86%.
Breakdown by audio system:
Dark Highland Green w/ Mach 460: 2873
Dark Highland Green w/out Mach 460: 168
PS: I'd gladly take a low cost, unique Z/28.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,597
From: oshawa,ontario,canada
Re: Actually, I have one of 2873..
Originally posted by WERM
Total 2001 Mustangs Produced (e.g, includes standard models, GTs, Bullitts and Cobras): 163,818.
Total 2001 Bullitts Produced: 5582.
% of 2001 Mustangs that are Bullitts: 3.41%.
Total Dark Highland Green 2001 Bullitts Produced: 3041.
% of 2001 Bullitts that are Dark Highland Green: 54.5%
% of 2001 Mustangs that are Dark Highland Green Bullitts: 1.86%.
Breakdown by audio system:
Dark Highland Green w/ Mach 460: 2873
Dark Highland Green w/out Mach 460: 168
PS: I'd gladly take a low cost, unique Z/28.
Total 2001 Mustangs Produced (e.g, includes standard models, GTs, Bullitts and Cobras): 163,818.
Total 2001 Bullitts Produced: 5582.
% of 2001 Mustangs that are Bullitts: 3.41%.
Total Dark Highland Green 2001 Bullitts Produced: 3041.
% of 2001 Bullitts that are Dark Highland Green: 54.5%
% of 2001 Mustangs that are Dark Highland Green Bullitts: 1.86%.
Breakdown by audio system:
Dark Highland Green w/ Mach 460: 2873
Dark Highland Green w/out Mach 460: 168
PS: I'd gladly take a low cost, unique Z/28.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Originally posted by ProudPony
I think Camaro will do far better with a team of it's own representing it's every move. Again, a dedicated team will not be apt to "let it slide" or "overlook" some details due to priority on another model. That team would be judged solely on the success or failure of their respective model, making them more accountable IMO.
I think Camaro will do far better with a team of it's own representing it's every move. Again, a dedicated team will not be apt to "let it slide" or "overlook" some details due to priority on another model. That team would be judged solely on the success or failure of their respective model, making them more accountable IMO.
This team leader would need certain qualifications however.
1) Must be more enthusiastic about Camaros than career moves.
2)Should have LOVED Camaros BEFORE joining the team.
3) Not just punching his career ticket until he can get a real job selling trucks.
4) And most importantly,must love the heritage, the mystique, and the essence of the
Z/28 ....as well as all other Camaro models.
I am available for interviews.........
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Re: Re: I hate cleaning black anyways
Originally posted by ProudPony
It's the car, what makes it unique, and how the owner relates to the car's uniqueness.
Camaro will HAVE to have this to be a grand-slam.
That's all there is to it.
It's the car, what makes it unique, and how the owner relates to the car's uniqueness.
Camaro will HAVE to have this to be a grand-slam.
That's all there is to it.
Unfortunately....I see NO indications that GM "gets this", or "will get it", by the time Camaro comes out.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 564
From: Fletcher, NC, US
Re: Re: I hate cleaning black anyways
Originally posted by ProudPony
speed ain't everything to this crowd of car guys. In fact, it is often not even a significant issue at all. It's the car, what makes it unique, and how the owner relates to the car's uniqueness.
Camaro will HAVE to have this to be a grand-slam.
That's all there is to it.
speed ain't everything to this crowd of car guys. In fact, it is often not even a significant issue at all. It's the car, what makes it unique, and how the owner relates to the car's uniqueness.
Camaro will HAVE to have this to be a grand-slam.
That's all there is to it.
couldn't have said it better myself
anyone ever heard of the Firebird S/E? didn't think so. Ah well, no point in getting into it. The late 2nd gen early thirdgen era, appx 79-84, didn't have ball-throbbing power, but they had style.. style like no other. subtle difference to cause major character difference among different models. These years produced record-breaking sales numbers, all during the height of the CAFE/EPA smackdown. STYLE.. is going to be paramount to any contender 5th gen.
GT