I certainly hope they do . . . but until then, we've got a place in line for the 05 Mustang.

 

Z284ever,
I wish there were some way of knowing how many of those crowded around the Mustang actually filled out "wish-list" cards or even participated in Team Mustang focus groups. How many of those folks actually saw items in the concept car and thought,"Hey, there's the honeycomb grill that I said I liked!" or "Those are the taillamps I voted for in the survey!"

I've said many times before, THAT is the kind of thing that gets people intimate with a car... they feel like they had a part in making it come to life, and they will be more than ready to throw their $$$ at it when it comes out too.

Perhaps the number of folks around the Chevy SS concept was proportional to how many of those folks got to vote on options or design cues on that car?

As far as the F5... I definitely think GM can field a competitive model. It will take a new mentality and perhaps new people to make it successful, but I know they can do it.

Well, a few things have changed since then, don't you think?
While I agree that GM certainly came out with a winner to compete with Mustang, they didn't exactly have to beat-off the current throng of competitors to do so. There were no 350Z, G35, WRX, EVO 8, RX-8, VW-GTi, Turbo Beetle, etc, etc, on top of the domestic competition like the GTO, GTP, 'Cuda, etc. Just setting your sights on the Mustang will leave your bullets useless against these other worthy competitors in the modern market - not a wise thing to do IMO.

Funny thing, Ford actually HURT Mustang sales substantially when they introduced the Cougar in '67 (same year as the Camaro) but the Cougar itself was a raging success. Something like 270,000 Cougar units were sold 1st year. Then the Maverick came along and took 570,000 units in it's first year, again putting the hurt on Mustang sales, and those were from INSIDE Ford too. For these historical inferences, I would take to heart what some have said about the F5 competing with other GM offerings like the MC, Impy, GP and such. Those types of cars ARE leaching sales from a would-be ponycar buyer, and any future Camaro WILL be competing with GM's own stuff, from the Vette to the GP. A V8, RWD, and 2 doors does not a Camaro-success make. You guys who are preaching to be careful and attentive of other GM offerings and how they may affect the F5 are indeed wise, and on-track in my book, I hope others are listening...
I'd sooner see a new Camaro done right, than to see it revived only to die another agonizing death and tarnish the legendary name.

Proud

 

The question is what will Chevy do if a 400HP sub-$35K Mustang is out when the new Camaro comes out. What Chances are there for a 400HP Camaro since the base Vette will probably only be about 400HP. I have no doubt that the Z28 will crush the GT, but I don't know about the 06 or 07 Cobra.

How about a limited number or 427 Camaros to kill Cobras, make about 500, just enough for bragging rights but not enough to steal Vette sales

 

Well, I'd say, the 400hp genie is already out of the bottle. Since GM insists on only making one V8 for Camaro.......I guess 400hp it will have to be.

 

What is the big friggin' deal with that mustang concept? It has to be the most unoriginal thing I have ever seen.

 

I think its a little unfair to base the Mustang concept vs. the GM concepts right now. the Mustang has a HUGE following and is a very popular nameplate, OF COURSE people are gonna be interested in the concept car! It already had an incredibly large fan base before it was even created. The SS, G6, Cheyenne, blah blah concepts had no following and are probably nothing more than styling exercises. Of course like the rest of you guys, i wish GM's designers could do a little more, but o well. However, they have had some successes, aka Cien and Solstice.

But now you put out a new Corvette concept or new Camaro concept to be presented, concepts that already own large fan bases, of course there would be large throngs of people around to see them! And if they're styled attractively, everyone would be asking "when and where can i get one of these?" just like they are with the Mustang right now. And something tells me that a new Camaro being resurrected is gonna create alot more buzz than a newly designed Mustang. Make it look good INSIDE and out with more or similar power ratings to a Mustang and in the same price range and yes the 5th gen Camaro would have a very good chance against the Mustang IMO.

Flamesuit now on

 

Sure, it has a chance.

Can the Camaro ever do the same volume as the stang - well it did once for a while in the past but looking forward, sales volume could be affected by many things.

Hard-core guys like us aside... the affordable RWD market is not gonna hand itself to GM on a silver platter.

In no real order... crash-worthyness (and hence insurance costs), percieved performance by the masses, drivability/adjustability for tall and short people, ease of entry and exit (esp. for women I would imagine), value for money, build quality and longivity, styling, reliability, optionability and coverage + quality of advertising and marketing, fuel efficiency (heck we all know GM makes some kick-*** high power motors that get great gas milage too, LS1/LS6 anyone?).

I think if GM could exceed the what the Mustang does in all these areas, then it could definately compete very well with and maybe be on an equal footing with the stang. But that's a lot of big if's and to achieve them all GM has to go all out for it.

I don't know if that level of risk and investment for one car (2 if they resurect the firebird - hey we can hope) is worth it to GM in the grand scheme of things - even if there is platform sharing going on. Personally I say it is, but that's just me wanting my 5th gen I guess.

 

A very good point.

 

Depending on who's numbers you believe, Ford is planning on building 160,000 to 240,000 Mustangs per year. Even if the circulated Camaro production goal of 100,000 to 120,000 is met, GM is obviously aiming substantially lower than Ford.


I see some obstacles for GM.

1) Will Camaro be drop dead gorgeous...or a disappointment? I'm sorry brothers, the SS concept...just doesn't get my blood flowing enough to make me feel confident..................

- Will Camaro have the looks?



2) Looks like Mustang will have at least four engines, (that is if it doesn't get the 427 V10). After it's second year, Mustang will have from 250hp to over 400+, in approx. 50 hp increments.............

- Can Camaro compete with two engines?




3) Ford is absolutely excellent a sharply differentiating their Mustang models. If anything, they will sharpen their focus even more in the new car. Can you even imagine a Z/28 vs SS debate on Stangnet? Of course, if they did it would be a GT vs Mach 1 vs Cobra (IRS) vs Cobra (live axle) vs Bullitt vs Pony vs Shelby vs Boss vs..........

- Can Chevy manage to give us distinct, differentiated models, aimed at different enthusiasts...and keep the Camaro from being "generic"?

 

Definite good points, the Camaro definately has some obstacles but if GM follows Ford's line of thinking then it can succeed.

The looks obviously have to be good, not only exterior but interior livability as well.

The multiple engines look would be nice but if Corvette only gets two engines, i dont see the Camaro getting more than two.

And all the models i wouldnt worry about too much considering that Bullit and Boss would be limited production models and Shelby would be as well and thats not even confirmed yet (unless im misinformed that is) and Pony i havent heard of. But to compete with these throw some ZL1, RS/SS special packages out if it proves a problem.

Then that leaves Z28vsGT;RSvsMach1;SSvsCobra. Keep the HP ratings higher or near the same and the formula works. Only problem is Mustang is Ford's baby, it'll do anything for it. Corvette is Chevy's baby and Camaro probably wont get the same treatment from Chevy that Ford is giving the Mustang.

Just my .02. Sorry, i enjoy this CamarovsMustang debate like no other

 

I don't know that Joe Average can easily tella Mustang V6 from a Mustang GT (or a Bullit, Cobra or anything else for that matter)

I have a hard time even....

And, GM did show a lot of difference between the Firebird and Trans Am... so I think they are capable, even though that was Pontiac and not Chevrolet.

 

I don't know about that Darth. They look pretty distinctive to me. And each one of these models has it's own image, is attractive and desirable. There are NO throwaways in the Mustang lineup.

Maybe Joe Average can't tell between a Mustang V6 or a GT or a Honda Accord......but I can garauntee you that those who bought, GT's, Bullitts, Mach1s or Cobras.....know what they have.

 

Go HERE (It's a .PDF file so I can't get you straight to the actual page) then flip to page three. It covers the "new for '03 PONY exterior package" in detail. Basically it makes a V6 look like a GT, with some extra stickers on the door and rear valance to boot.

This logic works with packaging, but is flawed in performance. You kinda say it yourself about the HP comment. How are you gonna offer 3 or 4 different models positioned ABOVE the base unit, but all have the same engine? The first hurdle for GM (or assumption for us) is that the Camaro will have to have more than 2 engines formats available.
And I agree with you re: the Vette... unfortunately.

My .02 as well. I too enjoy armchair-quarterbacking the ponycar market. It is often fun to debate facts, share opinions, and talk "car stuff", as long as people can do it maturely.

 

Well if Camaro only has one V8...I'd guess all of those would have to have a 400 hp LS2.

And I guess that GM has done more damage to the Z/28's image than I thought. I see it has once again slipped a notch.....this time below RS.

 

Pal, your wisdom preceeds you.
You are now elaborating on the most important ingredient in the "successful ponycar recipe" in my opinion... uniqueness.

Look at WERM and his Bullitt - there are a couple sites dedicated to bullitt cars alone. The Mach 1 registry is hotter than BON right now - all about mach 1 stuff. SVT sites are buzzing with '03 cobra tweeks and mods already. Saleen has his own cult following, as does Steeda, Brown, Roush and others.

The fact is that each person with one of these special cars simply can't get enough of them. And there is an instant "brotherhood" when you go to a show or race and see another "special" model. I went to a cruise-in at Nascar Cafe a few weeks back, and 2 Saleen guys (they were friends) came straight over to me and asked "Is that a Highway Patrol car?" They wanted to know every little detail about my '91 SSP. I then wanted to see their new Saleens, and reciprocated their solicitation for facts, specs, and trivia. We talked for a half-hour, and had never met one-another prior to that.

There seems to be an unwritten rule about respecting each others cars for what they are. Nobody really cares whose is faster or lower. They just appreciate them as they are. But the uniqueness is what sets them apart, and I think that the uniqueness that comes with Mach 1, Bullitt, Boss, Pony, GT, different wheels, different colors, etc are a large part of what is fueling the Mustang's success. Camaro will need to offer diversification and appeal to the wide masses if it is going to come back strong.

As a side note, I think that will be the Achille's heel for the imports like the 350Z... I know a vert model is coming, but the Japs don't seem to like "individuality" and it shows in their car offerings. They live their lives in "group" mentality and "conformation" mode, not "break-the-mold" and "be different" mode like most young Americans. In short, it is my opinion that the 350Z has NO CHANCE of selling 170K units based on the configurations offered - and there is a lesson to be learned there as to why. (Refer to first paragraph of this post.)