Does anyone think the HHR will be a sales success?
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 121
From: South Jersey
Originally posted by Red Planet yes, it is an important part of what a Camaro is and isn't .....but has anyone REALLY said anything new in the last year? Furthermore, think about it....if we call the top Camaro a Z28, we upset those who think it should be SS.....if we call it SS, we upset those who think it should be Z28..... and a poll on CamaroZ28 is not going to answer for everyone. It would seem to me that we have bigger issues to discuss at this point......hatch vs trunk, 4 vs 6 in base car, t-top vs sunroof avail....convertible...etcetcetc. On top of it, the insults start to fly.....wasted energy, in my humble opinion. I don't think that GM is telling the customer what they want.....and I make that statement because I've been with too many consumers listening to what they like, what they don't like and what their needs and wants are.....and when I say "I" I also include many other GM people. Are we making all the calls correctly....nope...wish we were......
Finally...a well reasoned and thought out post means more and holds more weight, I believe, than a hastily posted shot from the hip. Now...that sounds like I'm not listening......or we aren't listening...... but let me explain........
I have received thousands of letters and emails with passioned pleas for the return of the Camaro (no surprise there....) I'll compare two letters:
Letter #1 was from an enthusiast who wrote about what his Camaro has meant to him...in fact it went back over several cars he owned.....from his first Camaro thru the 'baby raising years' to where he bought himself another Camaro as the family was growing up.....that kind of letter gets your attention and shows the passion and the fire that a car like Camaro can inspire. He had a lot to say and had some ideas of what the next CAmaro should be and what it should include....a great letter. You can bet that letter went thru the copy machine and it landed on a lot of desks.
Letter #2 was from (I assume) another enthusiast. I will quote the entire letter: "If you guys drop the Camaro, your Gay!"
OK.....he can't even spell "you're" and makes a ridiculous statement. Do you REALLy think people are going to respect the opinion of letter writer #2? Do you REALLY??? Do you REALLY think it would have been wise to copy THAT letter? We talk about the perception of the Camaro owner.....
Now....keep up the debate...that's a good thing. Tell us what you like, what you don't like...give us suggestions....and call us on something when you think you should. I DO find some really good stuff on this board......but I'll also tell you that I have found good things on other boards without the insults and 'shooting from the hip without thinking it through." Think about what you're saying....and think it through is all I'm asking.
Now...if I've upset some, I'm sorry.....but I do take exception when people unfairly accuse some of my co-workers. (I'm not referring to PacerX's post) We have some REAL DUDS as any company does. We also have some people who have dedicated their careers --their lifelong passions -- to making great cars and trucks.
One last thing....there are a lot of people from GM on this site....most will not post....because it is risky to do so. (I'm lucky...I don't have to worry about putting children thru college or paying for weddings etc. etc. etc.)
Let the debate resume! (now...you can continue to debate whatever you want..but I can't waste my time looking at every SS vs Z28 post...if someone sees something REALLY new.....email it to me......) (and NO, I'm not deciding for you..............) [/B]
Finally...a well reasoned and thought out post means more and holds more weight, I believe, than a hastily posted shot from the hip. Now...that sounds like I'm not listening......or we aren't listening...... but let me explain........
I have received thousands of letters and emails with passioned pleas for the return of the Camaro (no surprise there....) I'll compare two letters:
Letter #1 was from an enthusiast who wrote about what his Camaro has meant to him...in fact it went back over several cars he owned.....from his first Camaro thru the 'baby raising years' to where he bought himself another Camaro as the family was growing up.....that kind of letter gets your attention and shows the passion and the fire that a car like Camaro can inspire. He had a lot to say and had some ideas of what the next CAmaro should be and what it should include....a great letter. You can bet that letter went thru the copy machine and it landed on a lot of desks.
Letter #2 was from (I assume) another enthusiast. I will quote the entire letter: "If you guys drop the Camaro, your Gay!"
OK.....he can't even spell "you're" and makes a ridiculous statement. Do you REALLy think people are going to respect the opinion of letter writer #2? Do you REALLY??? Do you REALLY think it would have been wise to copy THAT letter? We talk about the perception of the Camaro owner.....
Now....keep up the debate...that's a good thing. Tell us what you like, what you don't like...give us suggestions....and call us on something when you think you should. I DO find some really good stuff on this board......but I'll also tell you that I have found good things on other boards without the insults and 'shooting from the hip without thinking it through." Think about what you're saying....and think it through is all I'm asking.
Now...if I've upset some, I'm sorry.....but I do take exception when people unfairly accuse some of my co-workers. (I'm not referring to PacerX's post) We have some REAL DUDS as any company does. We also have some people who have dedicated their careers --their lifelong passions -- to making great cars and trucks.
One last thing....there are a lot of people from GM on this site....most will not post....because it is risky to do so. (I'm lucky...I don't have to worry about putting children thru college or paying for weddings etc. etc. etc.)
Let the debate resume! (now...you can continue to debate whatever you want..but I can't waste my time looking at every SS vs Z28 post...if someone sees something REALLY new.....email it to me......) (and NO, I'm not deciding for you..............) [/B]
Last edited by Bizzomb0707; Aug 13, 2003 at 08:34 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Originally posted by Red Planet
yes, it is an important part of what a Camaro is and isn't .....but has anyone REALLY said anything new in the last year? Furthermore, think about it....if we call the top Camaro a Z28, we upset those who think it should be SS.....if we call it SS, we upset those who think it should be Z28..... and a poll on CamaroZ28 is not going to answer for everyone.
yes, it is an important part of what a Camaro is and isn't .....but has anyone REALLY said anything new in the last year? Furthermore, think about it....if we call the top Camaro a Z28, we upset those who think it should be SS.....if we call it SS, we upset those who think it should be Z28..... and a poll on CamaroZ28 is not going to answer for everyone.
).See Red....see how this debate is ever-smoldering. Even telling people to stop talking about it, ignites it. It is a divisive issue, and it is people like you that must resolve it and bring us all back together
As far as I can see...there is only one answer. Give us both. You know what to do. I'm sure that you've read the hundreds and hundreds of posts on the topic....I think that there are lots of great ideas in between all the flak.
You know what you need to do to bring the Camaro community back together.
Just Give Us Both.
Last edited by Z284ever; Aug 13, 2003 at 11:51 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 121
From: South Jersey
Re: Re: If you leave us hanging long enough, eventually we'll let go...
Originally posted by steves
\I think they should go to a Ford dealer right now and pick up one of each model Mustang and study it. Maybe then they can see what we want. Im not saying that a Camaro should be a Mustang clone. Just incorporate some of the ideas that make the Mustang a better car.
\I think they should go to a Ford dealer right now and pick up one of each model Mustang and study it. Maybe then they can see what we want. Im not saying that a Camaro should be a Mustang clone. Just incorporate some of the ideas that make the Mustang a better car.
Maybe for the 2005 model, but IMHO the current Mustang is the same not so great quality as the f-bods and still slower (Cobra excluded). The Mustang was not a BETTER car than Camaro. Also, as stated many many times on this board, the Camaro's fate was decided by GM years ago. For that reason there was no major updates or any help from GM to boost sales, etc. That doesn't mean that there weren't any Camaro supportors at GM. GM is a business and ya gotta do what ya gotta do 
Things have changed and from what I can see the new cars coming from General Motors have close to perfect if not perfect execution... CTSv set new standards for luxury sport sedans. Pontiac is bringing out quality cars that will bring excitement to the division... GTO, 04 Grand Prix, etc. The C6 will be world-class as was the C5 in 97... and that's just to name a few!!!
Can't we all just be a litle more patient
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,979
In light of doing something new, I'm going to go through my car tomorrow with a fine toothed comb, and write down anything that oughta end up on someone's DFMEA/PFMEA.
PRIOR WARNING: Being **** is a favorable trait in an engineer.
PRIOR WARNING: Being **** is a favorable trait in an engineer.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 452
From: chicagoland area
Originally posted by Red Planet
(QUOTE "THis seems to be an important issue on this board, and most threads end up being a debate about this. I can see this is a thorn in your side but we won't back down. BTW do you think John Colletti would go on stangnet and tell everyone to stop arguing about such an impotant issue as a name? You say you listen but it's pretty obvious you guys listen to what you want to hear. Ford is listening to what their customers want
and not telling them. At this point in time you hold all the answers. I just hope all the information you gather from these sites go through unbiased. (END QUOTE)
yes, it is an important part of what a Camaro is and isn't .....but has anyone REALLY said anything new in the last year? Furthermore, think about it....if we call the top Camaro a Z28, we upset those who think it should be SS.....if we call it SS, we upset those who think it should be Z28..... and a poll on CamaroZ28 is not going to answer for everyone. It would seem to me that we have bigger issues to discuss at this point......hatch vs trunk, 4 vs 6 in base car, t-top vs sunroof avail....convertible...etcetcetc. On top of it, the insults start to fly.....wasted energy, in my humble opinion. I don't think that GM is telling the customer what they want.....and I make that statement because I've been with too many consumers listening to what they like, what they don't like and what their needs and wants are.....and when I say "I" I also include many other GM people. Are we making all the calls correctly....nope...wish we were......
Finally...a well reasoned and thought out post means more and holds more weight, I believe, than a hastily posted shot from the hip. Now...that sounds like I'm not listening......or we aren't listening...... but let me explain........
I have received thousands of letters and emails with passioned pleas for the return of the Camaro (no surprise there....) I'll compare two letters:
Letter #1 was from an enthusiast who wrote about what his Camaro has meant to him...in fact it went back over several cars he owned.....from his first Camaro thru the 'baby raising years' to where he bought himself another Camaro as the family was growing up.....that kind of letter gets your attention and shows the passion and the fire that a car like Camaro can inspire. He had a lot to say and had some ideas of what the next CAmaro should be and what it should include....a great letter. You can bet that letter went thru the copy machine and it landed on a lot of desks.
Letter #2 was from (I assume) another enthusiast. I will quote the entire letter: "If you guys drop the Camaro, your Gay!"
OK.....he can't even spell "you're" and makes a ridiculous statement. Do you REALLy think people are going to respect the opinion of letter writer #2? Do you REALLY??? Do you REALLY think it would have been wise to copy THAT letter? We talk about the perception of the Camaro owner.....
Now....keep up the debate...that's a good thing. Tell us what you like, what you don't like...give us suggestions....and call us on something when you think you should. I DO find some really good stuff on this board......but I'll also tell you that I have found good things on other boards without the insults and 'shooting from the hip without thinking it through." Think about what you're saying....and think it through is all I'm asking.
Now...if I've upset some, I'm sorry.....but I do take exception when people unfairly accuse some of my co-workers. (I'm not referring to PacerX's post) We have some REAL DUDS as any company does. We also have some people who have dedicated their careers --their lifelong passions -- to making great cars and trucks.
One last thing....there are a lot of people from GM on this site....most will not post....because it is risky to do so. (I'm lucky...I don't have to worry about putting children thru college or paying for weddings etc. etc. etc.)
Let the debate resume! (now...you can continue to debate whatever you want..but I can't waste my time looking at every SS vs Z28 post...if someone sees something REALLY new.....email it to me......) (and NO, I'm not deciding for you..............)
(QUOTE
"THis seems to be an important issue on this board, and most threads end up being a debate about this. I can see this is a thorn in your side but we won't back down. BTW do you think John Colletti would go on stangnet and tell everyone to stop arguing about such an impotant issue as a name? You say you listen but it's pretty obvious you guys listen to what you want to hear. Ford is listening to what their customers want and not telling them. At this point in time you hold all the answers. I just hope all the information you gather from these sites go through unbiased. (END QUOTE)
yes, it is an important part of what a Camaro is and isn't .....but has anyone REALLY said anything new in the last year? Furthermore, think about it....if we call the top Camaro a Z28, we upset those who think it should be SS.....if we call it SS, we upset those who think it should be Z28..... and a poll on CamaroZ28 is not going to answer for everyone. It would seem to me that we have bigger issues to discuss at this point......hatch vs trunk, 4 vs 6 in base car, t-top vs sunroof avail....convertible...etcetcetc. On top of it, the insults start to fly.....wasted energy, in my humble opinion. I don't think that GM is telling the customer what they want.....and I make that statement because I've been with too many consumers listening to what they like, what they don't like and what their needs and wants are.....and when I say "I" I also include many other GM people. Are we making all the calls correctly....nope...wish we were......
Finally...a well reasoned and thought out post means more and holds more weight, I believe, than a hastily posted shot from the hip. Now...that sounds like I'm not listening......or we aren't listening...... but let me explain........
I have received thousands of letters and emails with passioned pleas for the return of the Camaro (no surprise there....) I'll compare two letters:
Letter #1 was from an enthusiast who wrote about what his Camaro has meant to him...in fact it went back over several cars he owned.....from his first Camaro thru the 'baby raising years' to where he bought himself another Camaro as the family was growing up.....that kind of letter gets your attention and shows the passion and the fire that a car like Camaro can inspire. He had a lot to say and had some ideas of what the next CAmaro should be and what it should include....a great letter. You can bet that letter went thru the copy machine and it landed on a lot of desks.
Letter #2 was from (I assume) another enthusiast. I will quote the entire letter: "If you guys drop the Camaro, your Gay!"
OK.....he can't even spell "you're" and makes a ridiculous statement. Do you REALLy think people are going to respect the opinion of letter writer #2? Do you REALLY??? Do you REALLY think it would have been wise to copy THAT letter? We talk about the perception of the Camaro owner.....
Now....keep up the debate...that's a good thing. Tell us what you like, what you don't like...give us suggestions....and call us on something when you think you should. I DO find some really good stuff on this board......but I'll also tell you that I have found good things on other boards without the insults and 'shooting from the hip without thinking it through." Think about what you're saying....and think it through is all I'm asking.
Now...if I've upset some, I'm sorry.....but I do take exception when people unfairly accuse some of my co-workers. (I'm not referring to PacerX's post) We have some REAL DUDS as any company does. We also have some people who have dedicated their careers --their lifelong passions -- to making great cars and trucks.
One last thing....there are a lot of people from GM on this site....most will not post....because it is risky to do so. (I'm lucky...I don't have to worry about putting children thru college or paying for weddings etc. etc. etc.)
Let the debate resume! (now...you can continue to debate whatever you want..but I can't waste my time looking at every SS vs Z28 post...if someone sees something REALLY new.....email it to me......) (and NO, I'm not deciding for you..............)
I'd like to apologize if I insulted you, and thank you for responding to my post.
I was very disappointed that you asked us to stop posting the Z28 VS SS debates. This is a very important issue and we all feel strongly about what we want. Every post about the 5th gen seem to end up being an Z28 VS SS debate. I think this will keep happening until this issue is resolved. By telling us not to talk about this subject anymore makes me think you don't care what we have to say. From what I understand, you are all for the SS and really don't even want a Z28. So as long as all the Z28 guy's keep their mouth shut your life will be easy. I mention Ford in my post because they listen to the people that actually buy the Mustang ( who would have ever in a million years guessed that a 32 valve DOHC S/C'd V8 would be available in a Mustang?) Although I am very happy to see cars like the Z06, CTS-V, and GTO comming out I am disappointed at the fact that time and money are wasted on projects like the SSR. It was cool on the show circuit but I don't want one parked on my driveway. I can see GM is trying to make an effort but SSR.....what are you guys thinking? I'm just asking that you listen to all of us and give us what we want: a great looking/performing Camaro that we will be proud to own. Z28 , SS and a base.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 452
From: chicagoland area
Re: Re: Re: If you leave us hanging long enough, eventually we'll let go...
Originally posted by Bizzomb0707
Maybe for the 2005 model, but IMHO the current Mustang is the same not so great quality as the f-bods and still slower (Cobra excluded). The Mustang was not a BETTER car than Camaro.
Maybe for the 2005 model, but IMHO the current Mustang is the same not so great quality as the f-bods and still slower (Cobra excluded). The Mustang was not a BETTER car than Camaro. 
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,647
From: At car shows and cruise nights!
Z28 and SS is a big deal. Almost every post about anything that has to do with a 5th Gen turns into it. We just want a Z28 that deserves the name this time. (and 1 that has its own differences and advantages over the SS, although I'd really like to see it be the Z06 or 1LE kinda Camaro)
BTW RP, is there any 5th Gen subjects specifically that you'd like us to discuss and give opinions on??
BTW RP, is there any 5th Gen subjects specifically that you'd like us to discuss and give opinions on??
Last edited by IZ28; Aug 14, 2003 at 04:26 AM.
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Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,072
From: Lilburn, GA, USA
Re: Re: Re: Re: If you leave us hanging long enough, eventually we'll let go...
Originally posted by steves
I wasn't trying to say that the Mustang has better quality. Just look at how the model line is set up. Something for everyone. There is a car for every budget. Also look at all the details they put into the Mustang. Different drivetrains, interiors, wheels, body work, ect. for each model. You sit in a 4th gen and you can't tell if its a base, SS or Z28. I bet that if you were to remove the emblems off an SS and parked it next to a base most people wouldn't even know the difference. Even with the hood scoop and wheels.
I wasn't trying to say that the Mustang has better quality. Just look at how the model line is set up. Something for everyone. There is a car for every budget. Also look at all the details they put into the Mustang. Different drivetrains, interiors, wheels, body work, ect. for each model. You sit in a 4th gen and you can't tell if its a base, SS or Z28. I bet that if you were to remove the emblems off an SS and parked it next to a base most people wouldn't even know the difference. Even with the hood scoop and wheels.
So now you have a base Camaro, Z28, Z28 w/gfx, SS, base looking Firebird, base w/gfx, Formula, Formula WS6, Trans Am, Trans Am WS6. There is a lot of choices for different looks in there. Now of course you can't have a WS6 hood on a Camaro or swap wheels between cars, but you can't do that for different models in a Mustang either.
If you don't like the interior of a Mustang.......tough, you are stuck with it, except for maybe a new shifter **** or door sill plates. The exterior of the Mustang is the same thing too.
I guess my whole point is, don't forget about both the Camaro and Firebird when comparing the different choices between the F-body and Mustang, since this issue comes up a lot.
Disciple
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,479
WOW! WERM ...did you figure such a simple question would ignite this way
Red knows me and knows my blood flows whatever color it is that GM makes our blood. BTW anyone know what color that is
There is currently not one vehicle in the GM portfolio that I can afford that I would want ...that's a bad thing ...and a good thing ...saves me money
I have never had as much fun with a car as I have had, and am having, with my Camaro(s), and particularly enjoy how it surprises a lot of people at autocross
I'm honestly very afraid of what the next Camaro will be ...not because GM can't get it right ...but because of the compromises they seem to have to make to accomodate current and future regulations ...I doubt 6 airbags will make it any lighter ...could I have a 5 point harness in my 1LE instead please
The HHR ..not for me, but I to hope they sell a bunch.
Let me join the chorus for a Nomad or wagon, with a V8 of course, on the GMT360 platform. I don't need a brick (which our Envoy performs as in the wind) to pickup groceries and to trailer a Camaro, and I would really like a tighter, street tuned, suspension.
Thanks for keeping us in line Red, see you in BG.
Red knows me and knows my blood flows whatever color it is that GM makes our blood. BTW anyone know what color that is
There is currently not one vehicle in the GM portfolio that I can afford that I would want ...that's a bad thing ...and a good thing ...saves me money
I have never had as much fun with a car as I have had, and am having, with my Camaro(s), and particularly enjoy how it surprises a lot of people at autocross
I'm honestly very afraid of what the next Camaro will be ...not because GM can't get it right ...but because of the compromises they seem to have to make to accomodate current and future regulations ...I doubt 6 airbags will make it any lighter ...could I have a 5 point harness in my 1LE instead please
The HHR ..not for me, but I to hope they sell a bunch.
Let me join the chorus for a Nomad or wagon, with a V8 of course, on the GMT360 platform. I don't need a brick (which our Envoy performs as in the wind) to pickup groceries and to trailer a Camaro, and I would really like a tighter, street tuned, suspension.
Thanks for keeping us in line Red, see you in BG.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,400
From: Michigan's left coast
Originally posted by poSSum
Red knows me and knows my blood flows whatever color it is that GM makes our blood. BTW anyone know what color that is
Red knows me and knows my blood flows whatever color it is that GM makes our blood. BTW anyone know what color that is
As far as what the top-o'-de-line Camaro should be called, I don't give a crap. I just want to make sure there's some sort of all-out, no-compromise package that's assured to make some people question their commitment to performance, and that's assured to make a guy like me totally rearrange my life priorities to obtain one.
My list of requirements is pretty simple - don't make the thing an ergonomic nightmare. Take a Honda Accord coupe and use that as your benchmark. You might need to open up a couple dimensions to satisfy the 95th-percentile male, but it'll be a great start. A good driving machine offers a comfortable position for the driver, easy reach of all critical controls, and plenty of outward visability.
Moving on to the chassis, I understand compromises may have to be made for the base model - but don't give us cheesy stuff on the V8 model. Get rid of the flexi-flyer stamped suspension components and give us some nice cast aluminum, tubular steel, or nodular cast-iron stuff - ya know, the same top-notch parts that I got on my '96 K2500. Don't make me throw away half of the stock parts just so I can get the appropriate stiffness or geometry. Use nice components, like the fancy kevlar-lined high-durometer 1LE swaybar bushings that I run on my Impala, in those unsexy locations that won't be noticed by journalism pukes but make a big difference in performance. The need for an ultra-stiff structure shouldn't have to be mentioned.
I don't need to give you guys any powertrain advice, other than a simple request not to hold anything back.
PacerX, when you're done with your DFMEA review of your own vehicles, come give my Impala a once-over - I don't have enough time left in my life to document the stuff that shoulda been caught and corrected. My truck's better, but whomever did the intake gasket and fastener design hopefully works for the competition now.
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