No..


Well, is this going to replace the Minivan? If so, then maybe... how many Minivan's does GM sell now?

 

I can just think of so many other projects GM needs to be working on, and they give us this....
I mean it makes no sence to me! Guess thats why I'm not in mgnt.

 

I agree with Ken, if this replaces the mini-van, then ok fine, maybe it will sell a little. mini vans are pointless anyway with smaller suv's on the market. but other than that, couldnt all that time and money wasted on this thing gone into a 5th gen?????

 

Oh really? So you were there when we asked? (forgive me, I couldn't resist........)

Now...I'll be the first in line to tell everyone that will listen (and I am, have been, and will continue to be) that we need a Camaro.

BUT.......what you probably don't know is that GM/Ford/Chrysler/and many of the foreign manufacturers do "product clinics" -- there are many different clinic types...but one of them is to guage the public opinion (the new car/truck buying public) as to 'what are you looking for next?"

The HHR went off the charts......and get this...most of those in the clinic didn't even know who the manufacturer would be......the reaction was incredibly positive. It will be built off an existing architecture.

Now..........all you've seen is a sketch........not even an accurate picture of the vehicle, let alone seen it in person. Moreover, you probably aren't the buying demographic of the vehicle....so while we all have a right to free speech in this country, don't you think it might be prudent to at least wait and see the vehicle in person before you crucify it?

Now...I am not involved in the HHR...but I can tell you that it has a lot of interior room, but with a retro look. It is larger than the PT Cruizer.

We ALL want a new Camaro ...but is it necessary to constantly trash GM? I'll say it again.....DO NOT ASSUME the Camaro went away for good

 

I think the HHR will do well. Not blazingly great, but steady.

It's an immensely practical vehicle, and remember, like the PT Cruiser, it's nothing more than a small minivan. It will do well (assuming it matches the PT's price) with those who have to buy a minivan, so it may as well be stylish, and it will boost up GM's CAFE average as well.

Gotta learn that simply because something isn't for us, it's going to fall on it's face. I wouldn't buy an HHR just like I wouldn't buy a PT Cruiser. But there's alot of people who probally will..... unlike the $48,000 SSR!!!
(That's the as tested price from Car & Driver magazine! )

 

I'd really like to address this in a calm, rational manner. I tend to get fired up on subjects like this, so please forgive me beforehand.


Friend, and I hope I can call you that, please realize that many of us do whatever we can to support GM. It isn't our job, and we aren't paid for it, but while many of us are sometimes GM's harshest critics, we are also many of GM's most ardent supports. Please reference my gunfights with users like Threxx on this very board.

And I'm not just talking about killing electrons on the internet either...

I'm not a rich man, but there are 5 cars parked in my driveway. Four of them have Bowties on them, the other is a Pontiac. When it COUNTS, GM gets what counts most to me in my life beyond my family - my money. The proof is in the pudding.




Red, the Aztek did well too.

Now, before you get angry about that smart-assed comment, I OWN AN AZTEK and I love it, so I guess I'm good clinic material ***SHUDDER***.




Yes, we all want a new Camaro.

Many of us feel angry and betrayed at times - and the evaluation this early on of just a sketch of the HHR in harsh terms was unfair.

Folks are worried that their car is dead forever - what are we left to assume? You've said it will come back, but will I be in a wheelchair with Parkinson's, terminal halitosis and a colostomy bag by the time it does?

No one at GM will tell us anything (beyond the vaguest of hints) - and we all understand that secrecy is important, but many feel that we're the ones who should know first - even that we DESERVE to know.

I ran into a GM guy driving an M plate SSR at a gas station recently, and mentioned that the SSR was pretty but I sure wished it would have been a new Camaro. His reply was "that thing needed to die". As I mentioned, I'm kinda Type "A"... my rather curt reply was "Whatta say we go track down a stoplight find out what that SSR looks like in my rearview mirror."

My car didn't need to die, and I wasn't an idiot for buying it, and blowing that tub's a$$ clean off the road was about the only comeback I could think of at the time. I guess that makes me a tool, but criminy did that comment **** me off.

We're frustrated that GM is pouring money into other programs when our car stirs FIERCE emotions in our souls and remains dead. We've got to endure (yeah, it's a melodramatic word) the BS from Mustang owners and ricers about our cars being too rotten to survive.

Yeah, we don't deserve anything more than what our money bought - right or wrong, we just like to feel that we do.

We just want our car back. Desperately. And sometimes the emotions are running the quarter-mile while our better judgement is still in neutral.



Now... if it does come back soon, no half measures. Just like the CTSv, it's going to have to blow everything from those Blue-Oval morons and our Japanese "friends" straight into the weeds in EVERY respect.

NOTHING short of the benchmark. Like Corvette. Like the full-size trucks. Like the CTSv.

 

PacerX speaks for me, too.

Most of the vehicles in our household are GM. See the sig (the Fords came with the wife, sorry, but I can't just dump those.)

I've owned lots more--84 Fiero (my first new car), 87 Fiero GT, 89 IROC convertible (my best, most reliable car to date, now given to a friend who is at 162,000 miles on the ORIGINAL clutch), 97 Trans Am convertible, 93 Corvette.

I also own a Prowler (think SSR).

I owned a PT Cruiser (think HHR).

So yes, I was a bit fired up when I blasted the SSR and HHR. But I stand by my numbers. If the SSR sells more than 5K after the first year and the HHR cracks 50K, I'll be VERY suprised.

Why?

How many Prowlers did Chrysler sell? About 12K over four production years. It's a one-note car. It's there to get attention. Kids point. It's cool. But it ain't fast, it ain't fun, and it's not really what gets real car nuts excited. You can't sustain much on a single note.

And I'm afraid the SSR is in the same category. Yes, it has better luggage space and a better exhaust note. It is also more expensive. Check out the resale on Prowlers and you'll see a lot of people who are gunshy about a big-$, single-note car. Including me.

(Now, if you have plans to reduce the price to $35K and up the horsepower to 400, then I believe the 15K number. I believe it and then some. Because at that point the car is not a single-note car. )

The HHR? Been there, done that. Don't care that it's bigger. It's an also-ran. Historically, how have also-rans done when compared to the competition? Especially when they are in a niche segment? What were sales numbers for the Camaro and Mustang again? Factor in the base price of a PT being about $17K, the proliferation of uglo-box "competitors" from the Japanese, and the recent insanity with GM pricing, and I'll stand by my 50K number.

Red, I WANT GM to do well. I am encouraged by some of the current changes: XLR, CTS-V, GTO, Solstice, C6, even the SSR. I WANT GM to kick the crap out of all comers, on all fronts.

ALL FRONTS. Not just the BMW Ms and Mercedes roadsters. Not just the Miata and S2000. How about the RX8, the 350Z, the G35, the new Mustang . . . the cars people get excited about (for whatever insane reason). The cars that are the new Camaro competitors.

Go ahead. Sit back. Call me crazy. But I think the successor should be announced . . . and sooner rather than later.

 

No. We are going to crucify every car GM introduces until we get our Camaro back.

Camaro Fans Unite!!!

 

You speak for me too PX.


I'm almost willing to overlook your previous comments from the SS thread. (I said almost) .

 

Why must we crucify every non-Camaro?

GM/Chevrolet is at least moving in a direction where performance and styling is critical. Several of the new cars and concepts are positives in that direction and quite frankly the longer it takes the next Camaro to materialize, the better chance there is they'll get it right!

Heck, I for one think its worth the wait.

 

Rode in a PT last week. Nice little car...One thing did pop into my head though. There didn't seem to be enough room to carry 4 people and luggage. Little bigger could go a long way with some people.

 

I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree, but I think it was a joke...

....ummmm.....



When has it not been critical? It was critical with the Vega (an example of the bad), and it was critical with the C5 (an example of the good - see, I'M BALANCED).



According to Lutz, it's gonna be THIRTY YEARS OR SO.

Ahahahaha... Bob's a friggin CARD, ain't he?

Given my family history with hearts that spin a main bearing at the most inopportune times and cerebral blood vessels that do the "10-bolt two step", I'M GONNA BE DEAD IN THIRTY YEARS.

 

Pacer....I guess I made my post in haste...but I still stand by the fact that the HHR will serve a market.....not this market.....but a market nevertheless.

A couple of thoughts..... (Oh boy...here goes RP again....)

The automotive market is very complex. While most people on this forum hate front wheel drive (perhaps hate is too strong a word....) note that the Impala...which we have been strongly criticized for....has been selling extremely well....to the point that well into it's lifecycle, we've had to add a third shift...and sold a record number of them last month...yes, with rebates, but in a free market, you do what you have to do. (most countries do not have a free market....they have stiff tariffs........) Further, the top selling passenger cars in this country are FWD.....yup, there aren't a lot of choices with RWD.....but nevertheless, the best sellers are not performance cars.......not by a long shot. The average Joe or Josephine vote with their wallets.....and they want good, safe, reliable, quality transportation. (puts me to sleep, but hey, I'm not, nor hope ever to be, a sedan buyer.......)

The Camaro and its future. There is a lot of reasons why people at GM are not talking about a future Camaro. Hint: Did you notice that we closed a plant? As to the fellow driving the M-tagged SSR....it MAY have been a GM employee, it MAY have been an ASC employee....it MAY have been a journalist. If it WERE a GM employee and I had heard him say it, I would have taken his head off right there. I don't believe most GM employees are happy that the Camaro is on hiatus....I hear from employees every day asking me "when???" (GM is a very large company and very few employees are given a peek into the future......one reason is confidentiality..............)


The Aztek did not clinic well as I recall......the interior did...but that's about it. Remember that the Aztek was developed in the dark days of GM under the "Z-rule" The HHR, on the other hand, clinic'd extremely well.......and I don't think you'll find there's much in common when you see the final product.

The SSR.....again, a product under the Z...rule....but it has been extremely well received as well....however, I don't think anyone has any intention of selling the numbers I've seen quoted on this board....and I don't necessarily (personally) think it is a vehicle that will be around forever......at least not in the form you see it today.....it is an image vehicle......I don't think, as a rule, image vehicles sell huge numbers.....

Rest assured, fellow Camaro Enthusiasts....that we hear you. I would like nothing more than to post stuff about a 5th gen Camaro on this board. If I did, however, I would not be working for the General for very long. I will say this: It will not be out tomorrow...it will not be shown at the 2004 Detroit Auto show...and it will not be out until it's right. The worst thing we could do is rush something to production and not get it right....and if I'm not mistaken, this statement is probably the second statement ever posted on this board that just MAYBE everyone will agree with! (the first being "Bring back our Camaro!!!!)

Now...a personal thought: I try to read thru several Camaro/Firebird sites several times a week. If I sound a little 'testy' it's because the Camaro is my life. (visit my home sometime and you'll see what I mean.....most have pictures and portraits of their kids on the walls? I have pictures of my kids, too....lotsa 8 1/2 X11s of "my kids" -- the Camaro.......I could go on, but I'm digressing again....) I'm working hard to support the enthusiast community and I'm fighting hard to ensure everyone that matters at GM knows what a Camaro is and what it is not. I love my job, but it has an awful lot of headaches.........and thus, I sometimes read posts that get me going.....I've said it before and I'll say it again...one of the reasons I post is to educate....and I keep trying to do that.....and when I see a post that I don't agree with...or a post that appears not to have a lot of thought behind it, or one that is not based in fact, I will usually horn in.......and the HHR post was an example. I guess I can't understand why people can't say "I saw the sketch and it looks like bull poopy, but I'll wait to see it in person, 'cause golly gee, I could be wrong!" rather than "It's a piece of #%$*#&"

So......Camaro Comrades...just understand that good ole RP gets frustrated too........

And PLEASE.......stop with the Z28 vs SS.........we've (meaning the entire membership of this board) have heard it enough times......

 

Oh..by the way.....the thing about Lutz's "30 years" quote....

Now....I'm not in his head and do not have access to his inner thoughts.....but:

He was asked at one point about Camaro...and his response was to the effect....it's a high priority. Ritter, Moss, and several other executives made similar statements...but shortly thereafter kinda back-peddled.......methinks (meknows) there's a reason for that.

a while later he was asked the same question (probably the 10thousandth time the question was asked.....and a qood question nevertheless) and I think he responded quickly and just may have wished he had not exaggerated.........

So take that quote with a grain of salt.................

 

Gee Red....we've got to talk about something. If we stop complaining about GM and stop talking about Z/28 and SS....this will be the only thread left:

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showt...hreadid=157087