Jason E

This is an obvious offshoot of my other thread (which I was quite surprised at the response...hadn't checked it since Sat). I had been thinking about starting it before stars' comment in it that we should come up with a definition of Pontiac.

What is Pontiac? What should it be? How should it be defined? Using existing (and known to be coming) architecture, here we go. In my mind, this is what Pontiac needs NOW. From the bottom up...

1) The concept of the G5 is fine, but give it a re-skin. Maybe if it had a NORMAL ad campaign (not web-based) and a unique, aggressive design, it would be a lot hotter seller than it is? Maybe we could sell 40,000 a year? Same 2 engine choices, and make a GXP version with the SS's engine. Maybe give the GXP the Recaros, LSD and some CD rotors as standard equipment, and retail it $1,000 higher than a comparable SS Chevy?

2) Add some wide-stance cladding to the G6, put the $$ spent on the GXP's body design into some hardcore chassis hardware and better wheels, and for the love of god give it the Saab turbo 2.8, and turn the wick up on the boost!! Oh yeah, give it the 6 speed too...can you imagine a REAL G6 GXP with a 275hp turbo 2.8, M6, some attractive body cladding and a few other goodies for less than $30k? I sure could...and when it gets re-designed, call it the Grand Am again, will ya please?

3) G8? Leave it as is. I think this one is on the mark...only rename it the Grand Prix, goddamn it!!!!

4) GTO. Make it a more aggressive looking, but still basically a, 2 door G8. Should be cheap enough to do...same greenhouses, hell, even give them the same front and tail...but add some aggressive wheel and cladding choices to the GTO. The GTO was nothing more than a tarted-up Tempest/LeMans anyway, right?

5) Solstice? Fine with me.

6) Bonneville. Put this one on the stretched Zeta that will be used for Caddy. Style it with enthusiasm (not the same enthusiasm used on the '00-'03 SSEis...more like the '04-'05 GXPs!!!), keep it south of $40k, and watch that full size Pontiac roll...if Buick doesn't want it, give it to Pontiac!!! The G8 is not big/flashy/prestigious enough of a car to roll as Pontiac's flagship.


6 models...1 niche convertible, 1 restyled spin off of a Chevy, 1 core product that is inherently an Epsilon at heart, 1 a 2 door version of a volume 4 door, the 4 door version of that and an aspirational RWD, large offering.

This is what Pontiac should be. Can the Torrent, and follow Mazda's playbook with an enthusiastic small and midsize car, offer a roadster, have a great performance coupe, and add a couple traditional Pontiac offerings...2 bigger sedans with big, brass *****. I think the Bonneville GXP was brilliant...it was simply 4 years too late.

Maybe the Bonneville isn't a requirement, but in my mind, the rest of what I said is...just my .02 on what used to be GM's greatest division...and is currently the most also-ran...

stars1010

I think before we even start to discuss Pontiacs products, we need to start off real simple and figure out what Pontiacs mission in the market place and really define what that is.

dream '94 Z28

Like the Buick thread, I really think a prpoer Chevy line up can can cover all of Pontiac's markets. All those cars listed above can be part of the Cobalt (G5), Impala (Bonneville & GP), Monte Carlo (G6 coupe), Malibu (G6 Sedan) line ups. G8, give it to Saturn since it was/is the import fighter.

Volume doesn't need to mean dull by today's Chevy definition, this was supposed to be GM's youth brand. Alternatively, if Saturn is to become nothing more than rebaged opels and Vuaxhalls, then let it have the most agressive styling to hit the niche market mainstream Chevy and Caddy misses to optimze sales.

If there was an arguement it couldn've been Pontiac or Saturn...and I think Saturn won.

Pontiac....Buick....they just don't fit anymore.

ehaase

I don't see either Buick or Pontiac having any future with a 35 mpg CAFE.

flowmotion

Yeah, I think you made a good point in the other thread. The first step is a clear brand identity, which Pontiac has lacked for the last several years.

One thing of note: Pontiac has the highest % of female buyers at GM -- I think that little important fact leads to a lot of cognitive dissonance among the car guys.

ZaphodBeeblebrox

The male Pontiac drivers who stick with GM seem to be headed to Chevy.
The women Pontiac drivers? Maybe Saturn.

There has been a lot of debate about Pontiac's future. Should it target BMW and go all-RWD? Target Mazda and have sporty FWD? Target Acura and have more technological FWD vehicles? Target VW with clean "Euro" styling (I think that's more Saturn territory)? Be a "youth" brand like Scion?

Once you figure out who your market is, THEN you can figure out the model lineup.

stars1010

Thats pretty much what Ive been asking myself.....but I cant figure out where Pontiac fits.

I think whoever at GM can figure out this directional choice and can properly communicate it will be a rich man.

Heres a thought, for those of you who have seen my ongoing 2009 Camaro pricing thread, maybe I can do some research over the next few weeks before I start work and come up with a "Plan for Pontiac". That could be an interesting thing to discuss.

I really want to see Pontiac succeed, I love my 2000 Grand Prix GTP and have also been a fan of a lot of Pontiacs over the years.

Edit:

As you posted in the Buick thread, I have to consider that Pontiac isn't just Pontiac, its Buick/GMC/Pontiac. Thus when you are figuring out where Pontiac fits in the overall market and in GM, you have to account to where it fits with Buick and GMC........

Also....when we figure the direction, what 3 to 5 products can fill it, seeing that another 10 products made up from GMC and Buick will be sitting on the same lot.

Jason E

Pontiac, IMO, shouldn't be a "youth" brand like Scion, because a lot of the people who buy those cars are buying cheap *** cars. Pontiac has a heritage of larger, performance-oriented offerings...hence the theory that a larger lineup is needed.

I disagree that Chevy and Saturn can cover everything. Pontiacs were successful when they had attitude. When they add visual flair. Are you guys trying to tell me that what was successful before will not be again? Pontiac is in trouble today because models like the G6 and G5 are completely boring, the Solstice is too small a niche to make much ground, the Torrent is completely forgotten, and the GP was completely ignored.

Saturn can fight the Japanese, and Chevy can maintain the entry level status, while Pontiac goes after the performance crowd. No one is going to tell me there isn't room for Pontiac if Pontiac had PROPERLY EXECUTED products. The G8 is a sign this may happen, but its going to take a long, long way to go.

Why redefine Pontiac? Why not let it get back to what it did best? Providing a range of FWD and RWD performance...pure and simple.

ZaphodBeeblebrox

I think you could come up with pro's and con's to each approach.

I'm 41 and I'm a Pontiac fan (own a 2004 GTO, wife had an '01 GTP and a '94 Grand Am GT, I had a '91 Grand Prix SE and an '89 Grand Am LE). If I had to flip a coin and come up with a direction for Pontiac, I'd make the whole brand RWD.

Small RWD coupe, hatch, and convertible (latter replacing Solstice) - Ecotec and turbo Ecotec*
Midsize RWD coupe/sedan/wagon (replacing G6) - Ecotec and V6
Large RWD sedan/wagon/coupe (G8/GTO)

No posers. All performance. Use Holden for some of the smaller-volume (large coupe and wagon) designs/assembly.

Leave FWD to Buick (except for the large Lucerne/Park Avenue replacement)...

* one of my young buck coworkers is a RWD fan. Used to be into DSM, now drives an old BMW 318. If Pontiac came out with a small RWD coupe/hatch/even a sedan, he'd be all over it...

stars1010

Maybe not totally redefine it, but project an image that fits todays market.

I'll be gone for a few days moving but I'll think about this and take some notes while I'm driving to my new home.

We have to consider the Pontiac of 7 or 8 years ago didn't face the same challenges it faced before.

I don't think saying "Performance Division" is enough to make it a successful brand.

That doesn't really tell me what Pontiac is in the market place.

stars1010

Funny you say that, because thats exactly what I was thinking while reading your post in the Buick thread.

ZaphodBeeblebrox

BTW, I don't even think that Pontiac execs know where the brand is going. John Larson, the head of the division (whom Roger Sears hates, but that's a different story) is leaving. Bob Kraut, the GTO marketing manager and one of Zarella's P&G "Brand (mis)Management" gurus, left to join Pizza Hut as their marketing director...

HAZ-Matt

I will start backwards since we want a mission first.
I don't think anyone at GM knows what Pontiac is supposed to be because their offerings are all over the place. I for one agree that it should not be a "youth" brand. However, it should be the excitement brand. That doesn't mean pure performance, but everything should look and feel "sporty" (like at Mazda). The target buyers should be relatively young (probably <35 at the most except perhaps for halo cars), but definitely out of school and starting or continuing their career.

The G5 is pretty dumb, IMO. Why buy it if the Cobalt is practically the same thing? It isn't like Firebird/Camaro where the Firebird at least looks 1000X better than the Camaro. If they were going to do a rebadge, the G5 needed to have the supercharged motor standard. It needed practically all the Cobalt SS-Supercharged suspension pieces. It needs good wheel-tire combos. I'm not sure you need an extra performance version. You could squeeze more power out of the SC Ecotec most likely for the GXP. If you just had to do NA 2.4 and SC, than the NA motor should have more power than at Chevrolet (you can even be lame and use Ram Air).

What would be better would be a vehicle that would cover the G5 and the Vibe. I'm thinking the Pontiac entry should be a 'hot-hatch' more like the Golf (I mean Bunny, err Rabbit) or the Mazda 3 hatches and or EuroFocus hatch. It would still be a compact, but you could focus on the improved weight distribution and extra utility in order to differentiate it from the Chevrolet offering. And of course the small turbo diesel that you just can't get from GM in the US would be perfect as an option.

I don't think you need cladding per se. There should be a subtle and an aggressive appearance package. The turbo 2.8L is exactly what the doctor ordered. As it stands there are already a zillion engine choices in the G6, and adding the sport package to any trim gives you the next motor up... maybe you can simplify this regimen a bit. Or perhaps the 3.9 should just go away, giving it the I4, 3.5L, 3.6L, then turbo 2.8L. Can't decide if Grand Am as a name is good or not. Maybe there are some old ones that would be better.

Grand Prix is a great name.

There is no GTO I agree with this plan for the most part.

Not sure we really need a coupe version, but a folding hardtop like the Miata has would be kinda cool.

I would like to have this car, but the question is how many models can you fit in a BPG dealership? Make sure that it doesn't have a Buick suspension on it, whatever the case. Should be a Charger killer.

I'm still left wondering how many cars we can fit inside a BPG dealership. How many Buicks should there be with this dream Pontiac lineup?

HAZ-Matt

Just for fun since we talk about Mazda all the time, they have this lineup:

Mazda3 - entry sedan, 5 door, with a MazdaSpeed version...
Mazda5 - some sort of shrunken minivan
Mazda6 - midsize sedan, 5 door, wagon and Mazdaspeed version
MX-5 - roadster
RX8 - sports car (in a manner of speaking)
CX-7 - cute ute semicrossover
CX-9 - crossover
Tribute - cute ute (fake Escape)
B series - little truck (Fake Ranger)

That's 9 models. And they don't share a dealership. Looks like we cute out the SUVs and Trucks from Pontiac (for GMC and Buick to sell), if we do that at Mazda we are left with the 3, 6, MX5 and RX8. It's almost as if Pontiac should be some sort of Vibe/G5 hybrid, the G6, the Solstice, and the Firebird If we allow 1 more car maybe we can get a G8/Grand Prix.

How many Buicks should there be? Could you create a dealership that sold Mazda, Lexus and GMC (can't think of an alternative truck only brand)? Would they all still have the same number of cars?

Also of note is that there are only two coupes (kind of), the MX5 and the RX8. There aren't coupe versions of the 3 or 6.

HAZ-Matt

And while we're at it... Lexus looks like this (I'm going to use their ridiculous descriptions):

IS - Sport Luxury Sedan (compact)
ES - [Camry] Luxury Sedan (midsize)
GS - Performance Luxury Sedan (midsize)
LS - Prestige Luxury Sedan, and hybrid (large)
SC - Luxury Coupe Convertible (compact)
RX - Luxury Utility Vehicle, and hybrid version (mid)
GX - Midsize Luxury Utility Vehicle (mid)
LX - Premium Luxury Utility Vehicle (mid)

8 vehicle lines, 5 cars and 3 SUVs.

Buick has:
Lucerne (mid)
Lacrosse (large)
Rendezvous (mid)
Ranier (mid)
Terraza (minivan)
Enclave (large)

Now we get something that looks like this...

G5/Vibe replacement - Mazda3
Solstice - MX5
G6/Grand Am - Mazda6
G8/Grand Prix - Maybe GS competitor (sort of)
GTO - much more an SC competitor than RX8
LaCrosse - ES
Lucerne - LS
Rendezvous/Rainier - RX and GX (cover both with one Buick though)
Enclave - bonus coverage

GMC Trucks and real SUVs (I don't see why they have the Acadia). Chevy/Saturn should cover minivans. Also all the random weird crossovers/suvs that Mazda has can be covered by maybe Saturn, and GMC.

That leaves no direct IS competitor at BPG, nor one for the RX8 (although that leaves the door open for resurrecting the best Pontiac ). Also of note, I don't think there is really room for Pontiac to cover a large car unless it is drastically different than a good Lucerne (which is possible... but then it can't step on the toes of future RWD Impala either).