That 55% you keep quoting is based off the best month, September. But in reality, October was still better than any other month excluding September.

Obviously the incentives are still working. But you are basing the big drop off a the biggest gain. Kind of skewed logic...

 

LOL blown out of the water?? Are you smoking crack? Markups were not THE reason for dismal sales.. Everyone knows the first 5 months the dealers could not even have he cars shipped to them. Once the dealers actually got the damn cars, the price gouging stopped....That is what I call tunnel vision. Everyone acts as if the price gouging lasted until September

Now even with huge rebates, the GTO cannot sustain big sales numbers. Like mentioned in my other post, a one month spike proves nothing. You base your whole arguement over one month with rebates...even with 3500 in rebates, this car did not fly off the lots.
This post makes absolutely no sense. Your numbers are wacked..

There is a link I posted that shows a GTO which SOLD for 24,150. The price includes 3500 rebate and 2.9 percent financing.NO OTHER INCENTIVES than the 3500. So lets add the 3500 to the 24150 shall we. That total comes to 27,650..well under invoice of 29k. Feel free to "verify" that GTO.. Their phone number is listed.

 

That was not the point I was showing. I was making a point of the rebates not being able to sustain big GTO sales. I never said October was not the second highest. That is obvious. What is also obvious is that even with HUGE rebates, the GTO could not sustain great numbers while practically giving the car away. I wish we had a few more months to see if the sales would pick back up liek Septembers numbers.. We only have December to speculate on.

 

Mark ups were a big problem for sales. Even now, dealers still don't let people take GTO's for test drives. Its a HALO car and buyer's don't want any miles on the car???? What a bunch of crap. I have heard, and know of GTO owners, that has had this happen. As recently as this past week.

A lot of dealers have a weird mentality when it comes to the GTO.

 

I'm sure you won't see another month like September as I don't think there that many left.

Problem is also the '05. News of what the '05 was coming with was "leaked" in September. Along with speculation of the price increase of around $500. Many people decided to wait. Even with the incentives. I see this a lot on the various GTO forums. They justify the wait for the more power, better brakes, dual outlets, and hood. Some took the incentives, like me. But a lot of people are just playing a waiting game. Maybe GM shot themselves in the foot when they leaked the info about the '05?

 

You nailed it there. I visited the dealership recently where I used to wrk as a Tech there for over 7 years, and asked a former co-worker if he drove a new GTo yet. he laughed and said no one is allowed to drive a GTO period. I was like WTF are you talking about? The concensus was that GTO buyers do not want any mileage on the car, and it was almost impossible to sell one above invoice if it had a couple hundred miles on them. They had 3 of them there right now and they are vey hard to sell.


Man I would take 3500 in incentives easily over 50 hp and a hood. I keep hearing conflicting reports of the MSRP on the 05's. It is 500 bucks?? For 4k I would buy a 2004 in a heartbeat. I wish I was ready to buy now, cause for 24-25k you can pick these cars up. That is one hell of a deal.

 

My numbers are whacked huh? Perhaps you should actually check out Pontiac or GM's info on prices & rebates yourself? Just a suggestion that might help.

The link you posted has a Pontiac dealer selling a RWD car in pickup truck country after being hit with a snow front before winter sets in. Without rebates, the car is selling for $1,750 below invoice. A fair discount for the circumstances, if you want to wire him $1000 and pay the whole amount within 7 days or loose your grand. Not a newspaper or advertized price, but I'll give you half a point here.

So mark-ups aren't the reason for dismal sales? I really think I am now talking to a rock. Are you prepared to tell me that people should have paid the $5-10,000 mark-ups without a question or whimper? Are you actually saying it didn't make a difference??

Even though Pontiac, GM, and any magazine on the subject states the dealer price as a huge factor in it's dismal sales, even though GM's own sales figures demonstrate GTO's sales have shot up once rebates and incentives were added, and despite the fact that these 2004 GTO sales have shot up despite the fact that everyone who's intrested and then some knows a new more aggresive GTO is only about a few weeks away from delivery, you still are trying to sell the notion that price markups and lack of incentives had no bearing on GTO sales. Hate to tell you this, but no one's buying that (excxuse the pun).

GTOs were slated to sell 18,000 cars per year (the absolute most Holden can produce). That's an average of just 1500 cars per month. Anything approaching or surpassing that amount qualifies as "flying off the lots". GTOs have been flying off the lots the past 2 months. GTO also had incentives the past 2 months, and most dealer gouging stopped about 3 months ago. Sounds pretty straightforward to me.

As for dealers not having the cars, GM had a backup in supply of GTOs as early as March. By April it was starting to reach critical levels.


You say I'm on crack? Are you even actually taking the time to look up the points youre trying to make before you post it, or are you just winging it??

I am glad that you acknowledge one area that killed off alot of GTO sales: Dealers practices of not allowing test drives or demanding credit checks or signing intention to buy forms before any test drives. It turned me off... till the 2005s come out & the 2004s drop.

 

That's why I decided to buy an '04. The car is going to be 6K+ more because they won't be discounting the '05's for quite awhile. And to get 400HP out of an LS1 is pretty easy and not that cheap. I'm planning on 400rwhp/tq which is a little more involved but nothing too extreme. I might do a brake upgrade if it really becomes apparent I need to. I did the C5 front pad swap and that alone helped a lot. Unbelieveable how little pad is on the GTO with the same backing.
If anybody can get them for below $27K, they should be jumping at the chance. You'd be hard pressed to find another car of equal value

 

yeah you are really showing me

Well I am glad we cleared up at least the under invoice pricing. There are plenty of cars out there under invoice right now. Not just that one car.. Plenty of them. Damn good deals. At least you admit to one of your flawed sense of logic.



This is where your bitchfest is missing the point. 18,000 cars. I never said sales did not increase at all with incentives, but looking at the data while the rebates started, other than 1 month in September, the sales are not enough to reach the target market.. Without price gouging, and without actual drastic price reductions, GM could still not make make near 18k in sales.That is my point.. Everyone blames price gouging for the lack of 18k sales, but the reality was the sticker was too high to begin with. not dealer goiging.

Price gouging did not keep 18k sales from happening... Price gouging was not a factor after the first 6 months...18k in sales would not of happened even at regular prices and no gouging, and have a very hard time reaching the numbers even with a full year of $3500 in rebates( or lowered sticker).

What I do want to know is if the 05's sales suck, will they offer a 3500 rebate on them.. GM has shot themselves in the foot it seems, because now everyone expects rebates.. While big rebates cleared out inventory, people are now expecting these rebates as the norm now..

 

Everyone seems to keep quoting the 18K sales estimate. Problem is, that was tops for the whole year even before they were being built. That number dropped to 16K right away before they even got over here. Many problems with logistics. Transport delays which turned out to be extremely late arrivals. So this 18K was never going to materialize from the get go.
That coupled with the price gouging were two very bad strikes against the car from the beginning.

 

And the sticker price itself being too high killed the sales. More so than the price gouging itself. Everyone blames the dealers gouging, when the sticker should have been at the rebate level to begin with. Even with rebates as they are now, they did not keep raising sales for more than just one month.

Lets sum this mess up?

I will admit price gouging had a little impact at first with sales...Along with lack of availibility to dealers.. When the deliveries picked up, the gougng stopped, but sales still did not pick up greatly..eapecially anywhere near targeted goals..due to a high sticker price, lack of styling etc. Peopel here love to spout prce gouging as the main reason for low sales for the year. This is flat out not the case at all. I had some impact, but not a huge impact like suggested by some.

GM launches incredible incentives starting with a couple 2k.... Sales picked up a little, but not too much.. Still much lower than estimated///Then a BIG 3500 in incentives. It worked great one month and then droped a lot the next month..

Price gouging only played a small part in sales, or lack there of..The car was just not well received.

 

Disclaimer: This is my own personal experience in my hometown. I don't know what transpired in LA or Atlanta or Detroit, only in my own area.
I visited my local Pontiac dealer in November upon hearing that the GTO's were nearing local delivery. No cars. Revisited in December. No cars. Revisited in January. One car. Locked up in showroom with signs that read "DO NOT TOUCH!" and "+$5,000 market adjustment". Asked if I could sit in the car. Answer: "Are you going to buy it?" "Not today." "Then, no, you can't touch it." Went next door to the BMW store and ordered a new 3-series after driving several new, window-sticker-in-the-$40,000-range cars. Revisited in March, right before delivery of my 3-series. "Can I touch it now?" "Are you going to buy it?" "Not today." "No, don't touch." Revisited in May. 4 GTOs on showroom floor. 12 more in lot. Doors are unlocked, windows down. Sat in car. Found headroom extremely lacking. Bumped head on roof getting out. Salesman watched but didn't say a word. Revisited in August after hearing of $2,000 incentive. Met at door, "Would you like to drive a new GTO today? Let's go for a test drive. We're really dealing on these babies..." Went back in September when incentives increased. Talked trade deal on 3er. They offered $7,000 off GTO without even trying and trade value equal to wholesale price of 2005 3er. Drove away on September 20 in new GTO.

I think if they had made the cars available in September (instead of January-dead of winter) and then the dealers would have treated folks with courtesy instead of contempt (start at MSRP and deal a bit) they would have sold 3,000 cars the first month and probably sold out by August. I asked my salesman how many GTO's they had sold as of September 20. He said 5. I asked how many GTO's they had sold since incentives began in August. He said 4. That means they sold ONE GTO from January till August!

 

Bingo. Whenever I see one, I still think "juiced Grand Am"

 

I like mine.

 

The first year any model comes up, its going to be marked up big time.
WHen the eclipse came out with its modern body style, the dealer thought it absurd to NOT charge a $7000 premium over MSRP, even though I explained that being in central Ca, I could go in nearly any direction and find another dealer...he didn't budge.

The cost/price is fair, I think. It's just not worth it though, compared to other sedans, and thats the bottom line.