GM has already said the Volt is a huge priority right now, and it is getting all the funding necessary. What's the issue?

In no way do I think Challenger is a "necessary" car for Chrysler....it is far less necessary than even the new Camaro is for Chevy....but again, it's an image car that has people buzzing.

 

I think I know where Josh is coming from in this Camaro issue. He has a point on one hand, but Josh, I think you're missing an issue on the other.

Here's where I think Josh has a point (and check emotions at the door for a moment and hear this out).

Camaro isn't necessary for GM. General Motors and Chevrolet have functioned very well without Camaro and could permanently function just as well. Chevrolet has about 4-5000 dealers nationwide. The last couple of years, Chevy sold what? About 35-40K Camaros annually? Of that, perhaps 2/3s were V8s, right?

Break it down.

Each Chevy dealer sold no more than 8-9 Camaros per year. No more than 5-6 LS1, V8 powered Camaros moved through Chevy showrroms on average the last few years. Buyers of V6 Camaros could have just as easily moved into Cobalts.

Camaro didn't have a halo effect on other vehicles because as a whole, people didn't stop into Chevy showrooms to check out Camaro. They stopped in to peek at the Corvette. Over at Pontiac, if it wasn't for the Solstice, Pontiac showrooms would be as fun as cleaning a litter box. Mustang has become such an intregal part of Ford that it's a core product (and a prime money maker at a company hemmoraging money).

So basically, Josh is correct that GM (and Chevrolet) don't NEED a Camaro. One can also make the point that if Chevrolet did NEED Camaro, it would never have allowed it to stagnate, would have never killed it, and just as important, wouldn't have taken over 7 years to bring it back!!

So while I'll give Josh that he's quite correct, I think there's a few other things to consider:

* A new, attractive, high visibility Camaro would attract new showroom traffic to Chevrolet.

* Like the Solstice, Camaro can serve as a testbed for new manufacturing and sourcing techniques and OEM quality improvements.

* A car typically only needs a couple of years to earn back it's investment, so even if the new Camaro lasts only 5 years (which is more than plenty long enough without a restyling) it's still quite profitable.

* and finally, it's a morale boost for the Chevrolet Motor Division, from marketers to dealers.

So while GM most certainly doesn't NEED a Camaro at Chevrolet the way Ford needs a Mustang, Pontiac needs a Solstice, or even the way Chrysler needs a Challenger, the benefits of creating the new Camaro far outweighs the benefits of not making it.


Now, about that "Jumping on the RWD bandwagon" comment.....

 

Oh my....that made sense, and I agree with it.

I best go take some medication.

Bob

 

Chrysler needs to increase market percentage. Ramping up the Challenger in terms of a plant/business efficiency model is likely part of an overall marketing initiative to promote cleaner and greener cars (despite the fact their "fleet" is neither at this point in time).

If the Challenger develops foot traffic, and if it has enough time and and well received acceptance, it may draw people from the mustang camp who are now tired of their vehicle or from the future Camaro camp if there are any delays in production.

If this occurs, and this is a big if, then the Challenger could be morphed into a stable product for a period of a few years, If not, since the initial quantities will be low and the pricing high, it can be played as a higher end car of special interest and be at least profitable enough to pay for the interest it will undoubtedly generate.

 

GM is making the Volt a high priority for the same reasons why Toyota continues to invest into the Prius despite it being a money losing proposition: Positive Press.

Prius essentially is nothing more than an advertizing campaign. It sells barely more than 100,000 per year, the Yaris is just as economical and better for the enviroment (low emissions and...exactly how are we going to dispose of old Prius batteries, anyway?). But just like the GM EV1, it's an emotional car that gives a warm and friendly glow to whosever showroom it sits in.

Toyota writes off the Prius' losses as advertizing. Bob Lutz looks at the Volt as the same way, but he fully intends to find a way to make money on it. The chassis will be shared with conventionally powered cars.

The skin of the Volt will be different enough to satisfy the people who'd buy it who must flaunt their enviro-conciousness by having a car that looks like nothing else on the road (ever notice how the oddball looking Prius gets all the press, yet Ford and Honda can't give their hybrid powered conventional vehicles away?)


Though I'll agree that Chrysler needs Challenger no more than Chevrolet needs a Camaro, especially since they have not one, but 2 steroid enhanced muscle machines the showroom (Charger and Magnum), There is a distinctive void as far as American large coupes are concerned. now that Ford has no Thunderbirds, Pontiac has no GTO (yet), and Chevrolet has no Monte Carlo, there's a hughe opening not merely for a muscle coupe, but a large personal coupe.

I've long outgrown my Camaro. Even outgrew Mustangs. I relied on my Thunderbird SCs to take my parents out when they came to town, or when I have to strap in a child seat, or friends or family come to town. But I refuse to compromise on fun performance or RWD, but I prefer a coupe. Right now I'm the prime target for a Dodge Charger R/T. Not because it's my 1st choice, but because there's nothing else on the market that's showroom new.

But add the larger Dodge Challenger coupe, and that completely changes.


Monte Carlo outsold Camaro 2 to 1 in 2001 (the last full year of production). Mustang V6 doesn't have to compete with a smaller version of itself (3 box sports coupe) nor will the base Challenger buyer face the same decision a base Camaro buyer will face because of the Cobalt (and formerly, the Cavalier coupe).

That makes the Camaro a tougher call than Challenger and Mustang.

Give GM props for making the call.

 

Camaro also appears to be, at least in part, about firing up the troops -- inside and outside of the company. Chevy enthusiasts are ambassadors for the brand, people who can influence sales decisions. Getting them excited about new product should drive sales to the more mundane vehicle lines.

 

I understand what you're saying here, but the problem with this is that you can't base Camaro's measure of importance to Chevy on sales figures of what was essentially a damaged car -- the late 4th Gen.

 

I think you can.

Trust me....
as a 3-time 4th gen Camaro owner, and the current owner of a 2002 B4C Camaro that has neither of it's power windows working at this moment, I can tell you 1st hand the various pieces of s*it componets and utter garbage that found it's way into the 4th gen Camaro that makes me at times want to post some EXTREMELY nasty things everytime a 4th gen Camaro-General Motors lapdog posts a defense of the 4th gen Camaro.

From clutches that'd be shortlived utter garbage even on 4 cylinder Cavaliers to fuel guages that 1/8 tank means 1 gallon, to brakes as famous for warping as 80s era Fox Mustangs, to fuel pumps with a life span evidently limited to 40K miles and alternators that die bi or tri-annually, I'm under no illusion that as an affordable performance representative of the General Motors Corperation, the 4th gen Camaro, has good, sound, irrefutable reasons (as in multiple) why Mustang utterly beat the crap out of them in sales on the showroom floor despite Camaro being a superior performance value as far as horsepower, transmission, and track capabilities.

Not only will I agree with you that the 4th gen was flawed, I'd be willing to pull open the trap door if you ever wanted to hang the guys who "designed some things that were meant to fail". If you want to hold them, I'd bring the chain saw!!

(I once ended up with police coming to the car with guns drawn after being pulled over for speeding because I reached over to open my '97's door because I couldn't open my power windows.... and immediately after 9/11, I had military gate people have guns at the ready because I pulled unto the base with my 4th gen, undefeatable automatic headlights unable to dim them, so, yes, I'd probally be more willing than most here to personally dismember a couple of GM decision makers).

However....
First, sales figures are vital towards any assesment. Second, although the 4th gen was damaged, the Chevrolet Motor Division of General Motors saw a 7.3% gain in car sales in 2003 without Camaro over 2002, and (you'd better sit down for this one) a 14.6% gain in car sales in 2004!

Returning to the question: "Is Camaro necessary to General Motors... let alone Chevrolet" although 90% of the members here would rather skin him alive over this, Josh is 100% correct in saying that GM and Chevrolet don't NEED a Camaro.

There are no sales figures that support this.

There are/were other models in Chevrolet showrooms that pull from Camaro's traditional buyers. Cobalt SS is extremely mod friendly, cheap, and PDQ (pretty damn quick). Monte Carlo SS will run 155 MPH...... that's governed MPH! Corvettes outsold LS1 Camaros the last few years.

Finally, those of you who have been around a number of years recall Redplanet's-Fbodfather's high hopes and huge frustrations over the years as a 5th gen Camaro seesawed from good news-bad news.

 

Dealers are giving away 06 Charger SRT8s. Make sure you get the TSB for the slotted rotors, immediately, though. (They became standard on 07s). You won't go wrong with an SRT.

 

Do not disregard the value of all the engineering that is going into both cars. Each gives its respective OEM the ability to take a significant step towards full EV and fuel-cell cars, and that arguably is more important than the public relations factor.

I've been involved with some projects at work that go down the same way - poor profitability to begin, but the technology gets ironed-out on a low-volume program and is ready for prime time when a bigger opportunity comes along. It's a smart way to do business!

 

A re-hash of the 4th Gen Camaro's issues, well-known by all here, isn't really what I was getting at.

Is the Camaro brand damaged beyond repair, or even damaged? No, I don't think so.

Despite all the aforementioned flaws, did Camaro still turn a small profit for General Motors in the darkest days? Yes.

Cobalt SS's and (FWD) SS Monte Carlos are cute and niche in their own right. You're not going to convince me that a significant amount of people who would be interested in a very good Camaro went out, or would still go out, and buy a Cobalt or W-body because it is somehow "close enough".

While I realize Camaro is not Mustang, Ford has shown the way. The market is still viable. There's still money to be made. And the hot looks of a new sports coupe will draw traffic for the rest of the lineup.

Finally, the fact that Chevy's sales figures increased in 2003 and again in 2004, right after Camaro died, to me is more coincidence than anything. They would have increased if Camaro kept soldiering on unchanged in those years. Why? Just look at the vehicles that Chevy started coming out with around that time frame. Mid-late 2004, Cobalt finally replaced Cavalier. The new C6 started showing up at dealers. Impalas and Monte Carlos got supercharged SS packages along with redesigns for 2006. The cars got better, more people showed up to buy. Camaro couldn't pull them in in 2002 because it looked the same for 10 years and the rest of the lineup was subpar. So I still think we're unfairly twisting late 4th Gen numbers against the entire Camaro brand.

 

Hm. The dealers in my area haven't gotten that memo. Of course, all their 06s were gone months ago...

 

Sorry to detour, but Prius sales are way up. It's in the top 10 best selling cars now, outselling nearly every car GM/Ford makes. I can't speak for Profit/Loss, but its a serious contender, and why the Volt is really "necessary", IMO.

 

You must be the only ones, they are sitting everywhere in KS and MO.

 

What? I would love to see some numbers on that because there is NO way Toyota is making over 250K Prius annulally like Chevy is making Impalas.