Until PacerX posts his spread sheet, ( or maybe we can roll it all together, into these series of threads), lets start here.

Let's really pick apart what we're looking for in a new Camaro.

Let's start with PART 1.....the BASE CAR.

What price points are we looking for? I've heard $18,000 as a starting point.....but:

The top Cobalt will easily exceed that. Do we really want Camaros that are cheaper than Cobalts?

The base Mustang will reportedly start at $22K.

To get the sort of quality and refinement in a base car, do we need to abandon the sub $20K entry price?

Should there be more than one front fascia......or is that really a bad idea?

Should there be any sort of upgraded suspension/performance package....or would it be better to to have such upgrades incorporated as "standard equipment"?

How much base HP? Be realistic, but don't be shy.

Should the base car have 16" wheels....or should we go straight to 17's. And what should they look like? Maybe Chevy should farm out wheel design completely to an outside supplier.

Anything to add? Any special features? Just think through what you're about to say. Be realistic but don't be afraid to think out of the box.

As we move along....I'll post the remaining parts to the "CAMARO PROJECT".

Let's get started.

 

I think REALISTICALY the base price should be around $23K. If you want to slap $3k in rebates on it, then fine. But, in 2006 dollars, $23k will be getting you a sub average car anyway.

The base camaro should definitely look different from the upper trim levels. The front fascia would be a good place to start, but could be done other ways. Definitely should have different rims.

Base HP should be ~240 HP range, a 280 hp SC'd 3800 (or similar) would be better, and a lot more appealing to the masses, IMO.

If the base comes with a decent power plant (240+) it should have suspension upgrades available. An SC'd 3800 could be made pretty quick with a few mods, and for those planning on doing such, having an improved suspension available would be nice.

My opinion doesnt really matter, since I wouldnt go for the base model anyway. BUT, knowing what my wife would like, most of the above would apply, except she probably would not opt for stiffer suspension, would NOT have any plans of modifying the car, and would probably prefer a higher ride height. So, I guess the base, to appeal to more buyers, should have a suspension that rides higher and softer with an available option to make it feel more like a camaro for the rest of us.

oh, and I think traction control should be available on the base, and come with IRS standard. Would like to see a solid axle option on the Z28 models, though. Perhaps on a 1LE stripper model.

 

I agree here. All Camaros must handle GREAT....that of course is a pre-requisite. But base models, I believe, must have a FANTASTIC ride....slightly firm, but extremely supple.

When the suspension engineers tune this one, they need to keep their eye on the "ride" part of the Ride/Handling equation.



I'm leaning in this direction also. I fear that the compromises required in a sub $20K car will poison the water for the entire line-up.

 

$18,000 would be in the realm of todays Ex civic. By 2007 standards, that's next to impossible when talking about a sub-240hp v6 car. If the current 4th gen base car sold for more than $18k, a 2007 year model would definitely be priced higher than that. For the price, that 18k bought you a base 4th gen v6 with a short list of standard features. A well equipped base F4 would easily be in the 20k range. So realistically, a 22k would be more of a realistic base price in my opinion. I don't want the base car to be a stripper either. Make the list of standard options nice instead of sticking us with roll up windows and manual door locks which was the case with the base F4's v6 and z28 models. No one wants this. Standard Power features are just about mandatory now. The price is also a good indicator of quality of material. If a 2007 base car costs 18k, chances are that it’s crap. Up the quality, and the 22k base price would be just about right. This would mean a well optioned v6 could potential reach 25k in coupe form and 27k in convertible form. Both are acceptable if everything is done right.

As far as front fascia, separate this car from the z28 and SS’s. In the 4th gens, the base and z28 cars looked so similar, only the dual exhaust outlet (dual-outlet exhaust was optional on v6’s too) and the z28 badging were the only ways of telling them apart. Give the base car a different look. Make gfx’s optional as well (See RS trim below).

As far as wheels, I’d say go for 17’s and nothing less. The next GT is reported to come with 18’s standard and the Cobra 19’s. This would mean the base Mustangs would have 17’s standard. 16’s are puny and feel more at home in entry level economy cars than sporty cars like the F5. Give the base car standard 17’s, and the Z’s standard 18’s. Give each wheel its own unique look as well. This is one of the things the F4 failed to do.

Realistically, I’m hoping for at least 240. There’s a very good chance that the next base Mustang may have a 250hp 3.5L Dohc and the base camaro will have to be within striking distance of this. It looks like the new 3.9 pushrod will be the engine of choice in the base F5 and I’m hoping it’s tuned to 240-250hp F5 trim. An optional S/c’er may not be a bad choice, but the GM 3.5L looks to be the supercharged engine instead of the 3.9L.

For performance options, make an RS option available over the base v6. This RS option would include a slightly (not overly) stiffer sport tuned suspension, sportier seats and interior trim, wider wheel and tires, sports tuned dual exhaust with polished tips and more aggressive tone, a sporty tasteful looking gfx’s body kit, and a 5 to 10hp gain in hp from the less restrictive flowing exhaust system. Make this option a 2-3k option which would bring the base car upto $24-25k, which would still be acceptable.

I'd like to get into more details as far as what i'd like to see in a base F5, but i don't have the time to write all of them down now. I think most of what i said would be a good base foundation.

 

Just a note on wheels.

Camaro is a very wheel oriented car. A poor choice on wheels has a bigger detrimental effect on a car like Camaro, than other more conservative cars.

Fact: Mustang GT will have 18" wheels.

Rumor: Cobra will have 20" wheels.

Many here have proposed that Camaro needs no more than 16" wheels....17" max.

If Mustang has 20" wheels and Camaro has 17" wheels.......one of them will end up looking ridiculous.

Any wagers on which one it'll be?

 

17 inch wheels for the base car - standard.

18 inch standard for the V8s, 19 inch wheels optional.

IRS standard across the board.

Base model price in the same ballpark as the new Stangs. 21k-24k.

 

20in wheels would be ridiculous. Besides the crappy ride quality, the expense of replacement tires would be extremely high. I would say stick with 16s on the base car but offer 17s as an option and maybe 17s as standard on the Z28 with an 18" option for those that dont mind paying $1200 to replace tires.

I think IRS should be standard but whatever rear end is offered make sure it is STRONG.

 

The F4 had 16" rims minimal because that was the smallest that would fit over the brakes, correct? I think the smallest wheel for the F5 really depends on how far GM wants to go with the brakes. In later years, the 4 wheel disc set-up was awesome. What would it take to improve upon that?

Would it be cost effective for GM to offer different size brakes for different models? I have always thought that would be a good idea, but I know it would be quite costly because a different standard wheel would be required. Plus, I don't think the base models should have to suffer from subpar brakes.

I say 17s standard with brakes that fill those up.

 

I'm almost certain the first few years had 15x7s as the base wheel. I remember how bad they looked from the back of the car.

 

Whatever size they are, don't even consider the idea of HUBCAPS!

I wouldn't mind a base w/ standard 16" w/ optional 17", and a standard 17" w/ optional 18" on the performance models.

Also, whenever you talk about a different fascia/wheels/ect for a base car...make sure you specify that the base parts actually look GOOD and DESIRABLE in their own right.

Make the base car great from the start, then make the performance versions even better, ala CTS. Not backwards where you have a great performance car first, then you take steps backwards until you've dumbed it down enough to make it cheap, ala F4. No more VOODOO ENGINEERING!

 

You'd need a minimum of 17" to clear 13" brakes, and at least 18's to clear 14" brakes. Brakes sizes may dictate how large or small the wheels get.

20's on the Cobra? That's some serious bling-bling. Unless the Cobra has 16" brakes upfront, stick with something smaller Ford. 19's at max.

 

So far we have some concensus:

*17" wheels either standard or available on base car.

*Base price of $22-$23,000....which would make it more slightly more expensive than Mustang.

*Base horsepower of 240 or more.

 

I think I got all of that covered...

 

Should a base model have some sort of a performance option....like the early 3rd gen F41, or the 4th gen's Y87?

 

I'm on the fence about 17" wheels standard on the base model.

I can appreciate the appearance / cool factor, but am concerned about the built in cost of larger wheels, and especially tires. Not only for the original purchase, but the extra cost associated with buying replacement tires down the road...

I guess I could go either way on this, though.