Is the Camaro name more important than the car itself? (Product loyalty test)
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Re: Is the Camaro name more important than the car itself? (Product loyalty test)
Open question for all: What is the Camaro name really worth (in $$$)? Is it worth more than the cost of removing the barriers to its use?
In other words, if I say the word, "Camaro," nothing else needs to be said. No one needs to explain the car, what its target market is, what the car is about, what expectations are associated with it, how the car should perform, etc. It simply is what it is--a Camaro. Marketing dollars therefore can be channeled in more productive avenues than defining the product, as is customary with anything new. Look at the GTO... besides the automotive enthusiast community, who else really knows what a goat is? Much of Pontiac's GTO advertising was spent on educating the public on the significance of the "GTO" name. Seems like rather absurd use of resources... and possibly, part causal to the car's mixed success. The same will happen with "Chevelle" or any other heritage name that has been largely forgtton.
Conclusion: Some may argue that due to contractual/legal constraints GM can not use the name Camaro. However, the for the right price, anything is possible. Despite the cost, given "Camaro's" brand equity, I say GM can't afford not to use the name.
In other words, if I say the word, "Camaro," nothing else needs to be said. No one needs to explain the car, what its target market is, what the car is about, what expectations are associated with it, how the car should perform, etc. It simply is what it is--a Camaro. Marketing dollars therefore can be channeled in more productive avenues than defining the product, as is customary with anything new. Look at the GTO... besides the automotive enthusiast community, who else really knows what a goat is? Much of Pontiac's GTO advertising was spent on educating the public on the significance of the "GTO" name. Seems like rather absurd use of resources... and possibly, part causal to the car's mixed success. The same will happen with "Chevelle" or any other heritage name that has been largely forgtton.
Conclusion: Some may argue that due to contractual/legal constraints GM can not use the name Camaro. However, the for the right price, anything is possible. Despite the cost, given "Camaro's" brand equity, I say GM can't afford not to use the name.
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Re: Is the Camaro name more important than the car itself? (Product loyalty test)
Originally Posted by danno02SS
My sentiments exactly and the twin sister thing was a disturbingly appropriate analogy.
Oh, and by the way, just for the record, my wife doesn't have a twin sister.
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From: Orlando, FL USA
Re: Is the Camaro name more important than the car itself? (Product loyalty test)
Originally Posted by Tanker Don
For me, it must be a Camaro. My garage isn't plastered with Chevelle posters. They are Camaro posters. My dream isn't to own a muscle car from every generation... it is to own a Camaro from every generation. The books, models, calendars, etc in my house... they are all Camaro... no other car. I have no brand loyaty to Chevrolet or GM per se,... just Camaro... and I think many enthusiasts are like me. We just love the car and would feel disloyal if we tried to replace it with a a close imitation. It is akin to cheating on your wife with her twin sister. May look and feel the same, but it is just plain wrong.
What I find fascinating in this discussion is how some characterize what GM "can" and "can't" do... which is complete rubbish. The issue is what GM WILL or WILL NOT do, and if they CHOOSE not to call the vehcile Camaro, I wish them the best of luck and hope the car is successful, but I will not buy one. It must be true to the car's heritage (2+2, RWD, V-8 performance car, base price under $25K) and it must wear the badge "Camaro."
Big AZz alluded to the only possible compromise. If there are still legal issues or certain anti-Camaro marketing types who make the Camaro name impractical, name each trim/engine configuration of the new vehcile RS, SS, or Z28. This may pacify some enthusiasts... I'd be curious to learn if any marketing studies have been done on that idea.
I am hopefull that GM doesn't underestimate Camaro's "halo" value. While most people wouldn't consider the car a "halo car" like Viper or Ford GT, it is fascinating how many "non-car" folks are familiar with the Camaro, what it stands for... and are completely shocked that the car is no longer produced. It just seems like the world is a little out-of-balance when there are no new Camaros rolling off the line when the Mustang is alive and well.
What I find fascinating in this discussion is how some characterize what GM "can" and "can't" do... which is complete rubbish. The issue is what GM WILL or WILL NOT do, and if they CHOOSE not to call the vehcile Camaro, I wish them the best of luck and hope the car is successful, but I will not buy one. It must be true to the car's heritage (2+2, RWD, V-8 performance car, base price under $25K) and it must wear the badge "Camaro."
Big AZz alluded to the only possible compromise. If there are still legal issues or certain anti-Camaro marketing types who make the Camaro name impractical, name each trim/engine configuration of the new vehcile RS, SS, or Z28. This may pacify some enthusiasts... I'd be curious to learn if any marketing studies have been done on that idea.
I am hopefull that GM doesn't underestimate Camaro's "halo" value. While most people wouldn't consider the car a "halo car" like Viper or Ford GT, it is fascinating how many "non-car" folks are familiar with the Camaro, what it stands for... and are completely shocked that the car is no longer produced. It just seems like the world is a little out-of-balance when there are no new Camaros rolling off the line when the Mustang is alive and well.
Excellent post. Just about sums up my thoughts on the issue. I'm not brand loyal, but I am loyal to a car and that is the CAMARO. If it doesnt wear the name, then no matter what it looks or feels like, its not a CAMARO. Great post Tanker.
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From: The Golden State
Re: Is the Camaro name more important than the car itself? (Product loyalty test)
Originally Posted by gr8fl red!
I think guy just told us all what we did not want to hear 
I am sad,
I am sad,
Originally Posted by 97z28/m6
what if they called it PANTHER instead?
Probally not a good idea.
Originally Posted by DaxsZ28
Several people are asking "What if GM does everything they can do to keep the name, but can't, will you still buy the car?" As badly as GM has treated the Camaro crowd, it would be hard to convince most, if not all, of that crowd that GM did all they could do. It would seem too much like lip service. Sorry to be negative, but perception is reality and this is the perception out there. I know, and most everyone here knows,
there is a small but motivated group inside GM (Red Planet, et al) that really is trying thier damnest to keep the name on the car and we all appreciate their efforts. But when it comes down to the bottom line, I want a car I can be proud of with the name I want.......that name is Camaro...
there is a small but motivated group inside GM (Red Planet, et al) that really is trying thier damnest to keep the name on the car and we all appreciate their efforts. But when it comes down to the bottom line, I want a car I can be proud of with the name I want.......that name is Camaro...
Imagine YOU and a group of people are placed in charge of a company because, say, the board of directors realize your predecessors didn't quite grasp the business. Once you get in, you realize that your predecessors made a number of decisions that while good for the short term, has the potential of wrecking the company. You try and head it off, but all these problems start cropping up while you're running the business.
You need the help of everyone in your business to turn things around quickly. Your board is starting to get restless, you are loosing market, the business is begining to hemorage money, and yo're working like the dickens to get new improved products out.
In all of this, there happens to be one relatively low volume, low profit product that was discontinued by your predecessor you moved h*ll & high water in bringing back. It's still needed to plug a hole in your line up, and has a small and very vocal following. But, because of something done by them & their predecessors, you may not be able to call it the traditional "brand X" without repercussions. You also have made this new item far better than your competitor, and have the potential of not just bringing back traditional "brand x" buyers, but also snagging a whole lot of the competitor's buyers and people who in the past might not have considered either.
Honestly, I don't think it's right to dismiss the car outright if it doesn't have the Camaro name, or bypass Chevrolet dealers or slam the current GM management. Dissappointed? maybe. Dismiss it completely? That's pretty shortsighted IMHO.
Camaro is a historic and recognizable name, and only the most gullable people could think that GM wouldn't try to capitalize on that name (think about it for a moment: GTO? Malibu? Impala?
). If the name doesn't come back, there has to be one h*ll of a good reason it can't. Also, consider that maybe not everything is directly GM's fault. Whatever "Camaro's replacement" is called (and no one at this point knows what's going to happen, so don't read into any of this), IMO it should be judged on it's merits instead of something as shallow as it's name. Afterall, if it does come back, I'm sure everyone realizes that there's plenty of people at GM who would have rather seen the money spent on yet another truck or at the very least have the car based on a FWD V6.
Alot of people put alot to make it happen (if it does
). The least we can do is wait and give it a fair hearing.
Last edited by guionM; Dec 20, 2004 at 12:37 AM.
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Re: Is the Camaro name more important than the car itself? (Product loyalty test)
Bad AZz-
Dude! I'm so sorry I mis-quoted your name. Please allow me to publicly apologize to you! Not intentional... just a stupid typo on my part.
Guy-
Maybe you can help me understand more about what is going on inside the "mind of GM" right now. You said, "In all of this, there happens to be one relatively low volume, low profit product that was discontinued by your predecessor you moved h*ll & high water in bringing back. It's still needed to plug a hole in your line up, and has a small and very vocal following."
If true, doesn't this seem like they are accepting a false assumption? Since when must Camaro be a niche, low volume vehicle. Mustang sure isn't. Yes, maybe hopes of rolling out 250,000+ Camaros a year is a stretch... but clearly a niche vehicle is a little short-sided. I'm sure there is marketing data to suggest Camaro's market is bigger than that. Would be very interested in your thoughts.
Dude! I'm so sorry I mis-quoted your name. Please allow me to publicly apologize to you! Not intentional... just a stupid typo on my part.
Guy-
Maybe you can help me understand more about what is going on inside the "mind of GM" right now. You said, "In all of this, there happens to be one relatively low volume, low profit product that was discontinued by your predecessor you moved h*ll & high water in bringing back. It's still needed to plug a hole in your line up, and has a small and very vocal following."
If true, doesn't this seem like they are accepting a false assumption? Since when must Camaro be a niche, low volume vehicle. Mustang sure isn't. Yes, maybe hopes of rolling out 250,000+ Camaros a year is a stretch... but clearly a niche vehicle is a little short-sided. I'm sure there is marketing data to suggest Camaro's market is bigger than that. Would be very interested in your thoughts.
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From: Seacoast, N.H.
Re: Is the Camaro name more important than the car itself? (Product loyalty test)
If they call it a Chevelle SS I will not buy one, besides Chevelle's were allways a different type of car (aka bigger like the GTO) and the current GTO is a pig.
If I had to buy a new RWD performance vehicle today I'd buy an 05 Mustang GT in a heartbeat over an 05 GTO. I don't care if it is down 100 HP vs. the GTO as the Goat is STILL Ugly and doesn't spark the kind of interest and enthusiasm that the Mustang does.....Put it this way, my lil boy sees an action figure in the store and rips off his montra and his motto is....
"Want it, Have it, Have it, Want it" Does the curent GTO spark that type of enthusiasm????? NO, but the Mustang does.
Even though I've allways been a Chevy guy, if there is no new Camaro I'll get a Mustang when it's time to get rid of my LS-1 daily driver, my 94 on the other hand is going nowhere
Marc
If I had to buy a new RWD performance vehicle today I'd buy an 05 Mustang GT in a heartbeat over an 05 GTO. I don't care if it is down 100 HP vs. the GTO as the Goat is STILL Ugly and doesn't spark the kind of interest and enthusiasm that the Mustang does.....Put it this way, my lil boy sees an action figure in the store and rips off his montra and his motto is....
"Want it, Have it, Have it, Want it" Does the curent GTO spark that type of enthusiasm????? NO, but the Mustang does.
Even though I've allways been a Chevy guy, if there is no new Camaro I'll get a Mustang when it's time to get rid of my LS-1 daily driver, my 94 on the other hand is going nowhere
Marc
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Posts: 6,165
From: Sterling Heights, MI
Re: Is the Camaro name more important than the car itself? (Product loyalty test)
Chevy can choose to call the car whatever they want, and I can choose not to buy it. That's pretty much my attitude. Simplistic? Maybe. Idiotic just because it doesn't wear the Camaro badge? Well, not all decisions have to be made based 100% on logic and 0% on emotion. That's why we're humans. Give me a Camaro or I just might pass on the alternative.
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From: Big Orange Country!
Re: Is the Camaro name more important than the car itself? (Product loyalty test)
Originally Posted by guionM
It's way too early for anything final. It's still being played out.
That's what Ford calls it's full size car platform under the Crown Victoria, Grand Marquis, and Town Car.
Probally not a good idea.
IMHO, that's the thing that sucks in all this:
Imagine YOU and a group of people are placed in charge of a company because, say, the board of directors realize your predecessors didn't quite grasp the business. Once you get in, you realize that your predecessors made a number of decisions that while good for the short term, has the potential of wrecking the company. You try and head it off, but all these problems start cropping up while you're running the business.
You need the help of everyone in your business to turn things around quickly. Your board is starting to get restless, you are loosing market, the business is begining to hemorage money, and yo're working like the dickens to get new improved products out.
In all of this, there happens to be one relatively low volume, low profit product that was discontinued by your predecessor you moved h*ll & high water in bringing back. It's still needed to plug a hole in your line up, and has a small and very vocal following. But, because of something done by them & their predecessors, you may not be able to call it the traditional "brand X" without repercussions. You also have made this new item far better than your competitor, and have the potential of not just bringing back traditional "brand x" buyers, but also snagging a whole lot of the competitor's buyers and people who in the past might not have considered either.
Honestly, I don't think it's right to dismiss the car outright if it doesn't have the Camaro name, or bypass Chevrolet dealers or slam the current GM management. Dissappointed? maybe. Dismiss it completely? That's pretty shortsighted IMHO.
Camaro is a historic and recognizable name, and only the most gullable people could think that GM wouldn't try to capitalize on that name (think about it for a moment: GTO? Malibu? Impala? ). If the name doesn't come back, there has to be one h*ll of a good reason it can't. Also, consider that maybe not everything is directly GM's fault.
Whatever "Camaro's replacement" is called (and no one at this point knows what's going to happen, so don't read into any of this), IMO it should be judged on it's merits instead of something as shallow as it's name. Afterall, if it does come back, I'm sure everyone realizes that there's plenty of people at GM who would have rather seen the money spent on yet another truck or at the very least have the car based on a FWD V6.
Alot of people put alot to make it happen (if it does ). The least we can do is wait and give it a fair hearing.
That's what Ford calls it's full size car platform under the Crown Victoria, Grand Marquis, and Town Car.
Probally not a good idea.
IMHO, that's the thing that sucks in all this:
Imagine YOU and a group of people are placed in charge of a company because, say, the board of directors realize your predecessors didn't quite grasp the business. Once you get in, you realize that your predecessors made a number of decisions that while good for the short term, has the potential of wrecking the company. You try and head it off, but all these problems start cropping up while you're running the business.
You need the help of everyone in your business to turn things around quickly. Your board is starting to get restless, you are loosing market, the business is begining to hemorage money, and yo're working like the dickens to get new improved products out.
In all of this, there happens to be one relatively low volume, low profit product that was discontinued by your predecessor you moved h*ll & high water in bringing back. It's still needed to plug a hole in your line up, and has a small and very vocal following. But, because of something done by them & their predecessors, you may not be able to call it the traditional "brand X" without repercussions. You also have made this new item far better than your competitor, and have the potential of not just bringing back traditional "brand x" buyers, but also snagging a whole lot of the competitor's buyers and people who in the past might not have considered either.
Honestly, I don't think it's right to dismiss the car outright if it doesn't have the Camaro name, or bypass Chevrolet dealers or slam the current GM management. Dissappointed? maybe. Dismiss it completely? That's pretty shortsighted IMHO.
Camaro is a historic and recognizable name, and only the most gullable people could think that GM wouldn't try to capitalize on that name (think about it for a moment: GTO? Malibu? Impala?
). If the name doesn't come back, there has to be one h*ll of a good reason it can't. Also, consider that maybe not everything is directly GM's fault. Whatever "Camaro's replacement" is called (and no one at this point knows what's going to happen, so don't read into any of this), IMO it should be judged on it's merits instead of something as shallow as it's name. Afterall, if it does come back, I'm sure everyone realizes that there's plenty of people at GM who would have rather seen the money spent on yet another truck or at the very least have the car based on a FWD V6.
Alot of people put alot to make it happen (if it does
). The least we can do is wait and give it a fair hearing.I hear what you are saying Guy, but the Camaro crowd has been dumped on so much here lately, this is just another kick in the stomach. I'm sure if they build a quality car with great performance, it will sell well, but it won't be a Camaro and that is sad. I'm sure there is alot going on behind the scenes that none of us here have a clue about and getting the Camaro name maybe impossible, but that doesn't mean we have to like it.
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From: Natchitoches, The Free State of Northern Louisiana
Re: Is the Camaro name more important than the car itself? (Product loyalty test)
Depends on what GM calls said Camaro-like coupe. If it goes something like this I would consider it
RS-V6 model
Z/28-V8 model
Z/28 SS- High performance model
Somthing like this would be like GM telling me "We tried to use the Camaro name, but it just wasn't possible right now. Give us a couple years to smooth out the legal difficulties."
In short-It would show that they actually give a crap about us. If they call it Chevelle or Monte Carlo, I'd start looking at the Mustang.
RS-V6 model
Z/28-V8 model
Z/28 SS- High performance model
Somthing like this would be like GM telling me "We tried to use the Camaro name, but it just wasn't possible right now. Give us a couple years to smooth out the legal difficulties."
In short-It would show that they actually give a crap about us. If they call it Chevelle or Monte Carlo, I'd start looking at the Mustang.
Last edited by Jackal; Dec 20, 2004 at 01:56 PM.
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From: Buffalo NY
Re: Is the Camaro name more important than the car itself? (Product loyalty test)
Originally Posted by Tanker Don
Bad AZz-
Dude! I'm so sorry I mis-quoted your name. Please allow me to publicly apologize to you! Not intentional... just a stupid typo on my part.
Dude! I'm so sorry I mis-quoted your name. Please allow me to publicly apologize to you! Not intentional... just a stupid typo on my part.
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 368
From: Bay Area, CA
Re: Is the Camaro name more important than the car itself? (Product loyalty test)
I read every one of the posts in this thread and I was actually thinking of asking the same type of question.
A few days ago I thought to myself, "What if it's an awesome performing car? 2+2 V8? Great build quality and all that jazz. BUT wasn't called Camaro?"
My answer is I would still buy it. I wouldn't even care to have RS, Z28, SS to "tide" my little enthusiast *** over. The Cobalt is a brand new car and it already has a following. The SRT-4 is a NEON, but it still has a performance enthusiast following. You don't think a new car from Chevy made to compete with Mustang would have a following? Whatever guys.
If GM creates a Camaro and it's sub par then the enthusiasts will whine like babies. If GM creates an awesome car and it's not called a Camaro then the Camaro enthusiasts will whine like babies. Well...all except me. Go buy your Mustang, I'll make sure to show you new car tail lights from Chevy. Then you can enjoy your heritage with a nice side of dust and tire rubber gravy.
A few days ago I thought to myself, "What if it's an awesome performing car? 2+2 V8? Great build quality and all that jazz. BUT wasn't called Camaro?"
My answer is I would still buy it. I wouldn't even care to have RS, Z28, SS to "tide" my little enthusiast *** over. The Cobalt is a brand new car and it already has a following. The SRT-4 is a NEON, but it still has a performance enthusiast following. You don't think a new car from Chevy made to compete with Mustang would have a following? Whatever guys.
If GM creates a Camaro and it's sub par then the enthusiasts will whine like babies. If GM creates an awesome car and it's not called a Camaro then the Camaro enthusiasts will whine like babies. Well...all except me. Go buy your Mustang, I'll make sure to show you new car tail lights from Chevy. Then you can enjoy your heritage with a nice side of dust and tire rubber gravy.
Thread Starter
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Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Re: Is the Camaro name more important than the car itself? (Product loyalty test)
Originally Posted by Tanker Don
Bad AZz-
Guy-
Maybe you can help me understand more about what is going on inside the "mind of GM" right now. You said, "In all of this, there happens to be one relatively low volume, low profit product that was discontinued by your predecessor you moved h*ll & high water in bringing back. It's still needed to plug a hole in your line up, and has a small and very vocal following."
If true, doesn't this seem like they are accepting a false assumption? Since when must Camaro be a niche, low volume vehicle. Mustang sure isn't. Yes, maybe hopes of rolling out 250,000+ Camaros a year is a stretch... but clearly a niche vehicle is a little short-sided. I'm sure there is marketing data to suggest Camaro's market is bigger than that. Would be very interested in your thoughts.
Guy-
Maybe you can help me understand more about what is going on inside the "mind of GM" right now. You said, "In all of this, there happens to be one relatively low volume, low profit product that was discontinued by your predecessor you moved h*ll & high water in bringing back. It's still needed to plug a hole in your line up, and has a small and very vocal following."
If true, doesn't this seem like they are accepting a false assumption? Since when must Camaro be a niche, low volume vehicle. Mustang sure isn't. Yes, maybe hopes of rolling out 250,000+ Camaros a year is a stretch... but clearly a niche vehicle is a little short-sided. I'm sure there is marketing data to suggest Camaro's market is bigger than that. Would be very interested in your thoughts.
What I meant by low volume is that anything GM makes that isn't measured in 6 digits IS low volume. The 4th gen was low volume.
The coupe market by most accounts is finite, meaning there's only so many sales per year. The only way to gain sales is to take sales from another coupe, whereas, for instance, you can pull a car buyer into an SUV or crossover.
I hope GM doesn't make the next Camaro a high performance niche vehicle. To me, that would be a slap and an insult to it's history.
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From: Northern Virginia (Arlington)
Re: Is the Camaro name more important than the car itself? (Product loyalty test)
This is what I think:
Say GM puts a great car under the Chevy name to compete with cars like Mustang, but it's not called Camaro. Say the car even LOOKS like a Camaro, so everything excpet the name.
I would definetly consider it before the competition. I will forever be a Camaro guy, so there better be one hell of an explination, and they better make it public to their fans.
On another note, I don't want a car that is every bit a Camaro, but called an old Chevy name, say Chevelle. If it's not going to be called Camaro, then it needs a new name. I'd probably buy a vette in that case, new or used depending on monetary situation...
Say GM puts a great car under the Chevy name to compete with cars like Mustang, but it's not called Camaro. Say the car even LOOKS like a Camaro, so everything excpet the name.
I would definetly consider it before the competition. I will forever be a Camaro guy, so there better be one hell of an explination, and they better make it public to their fans.
On another note, I don't want a car that is every bit a Camaro, but called an old Chevy name, say Chevelle. If it's not going to be called Camaro, then it needs a new name. I'd probably buy a vette in that case, new or used depending on monetary situation...
Last edited by rlax31; Dec 20, 2004 at 11:36 PM.