Maybe so, but the way you worded it in that post made it seem like you were part of that "many". As apparently both of us know, a lot of work goes into designing an engine, be it for FI or NA applications. I'd say the second part of my post addresses whether or not I understand that elitist mentality, as I stated that Cadillac is not yet on a level to compete with BMW or Mercedes on the upper tiers. You can't just jump into the pool and hope you float. VW tried that with the Phaeton and look how it turned out. The Phaeton was, by most accounts, a great car, technologically advanced and all, but it didn't sell well because it was the right car at the wrong time for that brand. VW never took the time to build a strong bridge between upper and lower tiers. After the STS flop Cadillac seems to understand this. If the XTS can continue to build brand recognition, bring in a some new buyers, all while serving the loyal customers than I consider it to be doing its job. The car is another step in the right direction, even if it isn't the 7-series beater people envisioned.

Next time clarify your post and there wont be an issue, senor.

 

Yeah, I think BMW and MB know their target market better than anyone. They build different cars for different people.

You know, Cadillac had some beautiful concept cars a little while back. I wonder how much of a game changer cars like the Cien and Sixteen (not to mention the rumored "Ultra" engine and V16) would have been for the brand if produced?

I think AWD would be a better fit for its luxury status than FWD.

 

I belive that the powertrain, the whole deal, should be standard for the XTS.
I think nothing should be changed, only made better for production.

 

It's Z4 sDrive35is, don't forget.

 

An interesting viewpoint from GMI... the writer basically concurs with our thoughts in regards to Cadillac's product lineup - not bad cars per se but described as "pedestrian cars for a pedestrian market".

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f...d-world-88257/

GM did fantastic things with the design language "Art & Science" but its time for Cadillac to step up to the mark now. Forget pushrod engines and standard tech, as the article agrees, Cadillac needs to be seen to compete with the Germans on their terms.

That's the only way Cadillac will become a success in Europe, and by virtue of success in that market, will be a hit run on its home turf.

 

I dont ever really see that happening . BMW and Merc get to put all their resources back into its brand . GM cant do this with Cadillac , its gotta share the wealth with 2 other full line brands and a truck brand . The American market is very different . Outside of the 3-series , BMW and Merc dont sell in the USA in the volume it does in Europe , so Im not sure Cadillac being a hit in the UK would translate to the same in the US . How many 1 series sized cadillacs with a diesel engine do u think Cadillac could sell in the US ? Thats a type of car they would absolutely need in Europe to have a chance at any kind of volume . Seeing as how it would only really be plausable to sell overseas , what chassis( smaller than Alpha ) would Cadillac build a car like that off of without cutting any corners or sharing it with another GM brand ? When GM has to worry about the next gen Malibu , the new trucks , C7 ect ect , where do the resources come from for a 1 series sized car when the ATS is already in the works . What else ouside Cadillac could be built off this smaller than alpha chassis ? Even if that issue was solved , wheres the Halo . The XTS 100% would not work over there and a LWB Zeta would be laughed at as overpriced Vauxhall . So I really dont ever forsee Cadillac being a widely accepted mainstream hit in the UK in the near future , outside of the possibly the ATS . I excluded the CTS because for the most part its not all that popular over there in its current life cycle .

 

Given GM is also competing with the likes of VW, which also owns luxury brands like Audi, I don't see how Cadillac cannot compete in much the same way. How is GM any different?

If GM must reach economies of scale, they have Chevrolet to help achieve that. If GM considers one platform too expensive for its lower spec brands, then there are ways to also offset some of the costs.

One thing the BMW/Merc marques do not have is GM's economies of scale. So, if VW can achieve more with its platform sharing, so too could GM.

 

I don't disagree with anything you've said at any point in this thread except for when you implied, in post #, that hand-built engines indicate racing pedigree.

Okay? That's all I'm saying.

Again, I am not saying it doesn't have pedigree -- just that they could build the engine on an assembly line and, assuming they continued to have the same level of success, maintain the same pedigree they already have.

This is the last time I will attempt to clarify my point.

I'll give them the advantage in prestige (for now), but they'd be wrong about the pedigree part. Cadillac has been around since 1902, Mercedes since 1900, and BMW since 1916. Cadillac and Mercedes can claim more pedigree than BMW, but not by much. Mercedes' two-year lead on Cadillac is too small to make any realistic claim.

Realistically, none of the three companies should be making any claims of superior pedigree relative to the others.

 

I looks great in person. No doubt about it.

 

this quote has NOT been edited in any way, shape, or form

You've been looking at your reflection in too many car windows recently.

 

Maybe it's just the way I constructed the sentence. The "..." usually implies an extra storyline in there but I didn't want to veer off track to explain AMG's race engineering background and its ability to develop complete performance engines that are far removed from the mundane production engines built on MB's production lines. There aren't too many companies out there with those kinds of resources.

But I guess I had to do it anyhow even if it's totally unrelated to the thread title.

 

Maybe it's more appropriate to start a new thread in regards to re-invigorating Cadillac but it must be said that Cadillac need exciting product as well as legitimate cars in the luxury class, which the XTS seems to fit nicely even if the powertrain options appear to be a bit scant.

Of the luxury marques, how many have supercars in their product portfolio? BMW, MB, Audi, Jaguar have. Lexus will unleash one soon. Infiniti don't appear to have one and I'm not sure if Volvo is considered a luxury brand... but Cadillac needs product like the Cien concept. This vehicle needs to showcase GM's application of technology.

Today I had a look at an Audi R8. Boy what a machine! I don't normally even think about such extravagant cars but being the car nut that I am, I imagined myself as an owner of such a vehicle... in another favorable lifetime! This vehicle was mid engined, and the engine itself was visible from the outside. A narrow V10 borrowed from the Lamborghini Gallardo, slightly detuned to give the R8 more driveabilty than the Gallardo.

I immediately thought to myself, why can't GM sell such a car?

GM need to capture the essence of what makes these expensive machines so desirable in the eyes of buyers with lots of cash. Remember, wealthy people don't have to think pragmatically. They don't care about the fact that OHV engines have packaging advantages. They don't care about OHV engines, period!

Imagine a Cadillac Cien V10 with 500+ hp. That would get more people taking a more serious look at Cadillac. It would do no harm at all to its image. I firmly believe that Cadillac needs to be a technology brand for GM. Cadillac needs to have exclusive powertrains although the lower spec models can share powertrains with GM's other brands. As excellent as most know GM's smallblock engines to be, they don't seem to suit Cadillac's luxury aspirations and might do its image more harm than good.

It took a car like Audi's R8 - there were many people admiring the car - for me to have a rethink my GM loyalty but I wouldn't need to reconsider my loyalty if GM played in the same ballpark.

Like I said above, if VW can do it with Audi, GM can, too!

 

What is BMW's "super car"? What is Jaguar's?

Today, the answer is 2. MB and Audi. Lexus is going to the party shortly with the LFA.

 

Plague

I moved my response to a more appropriate thread...

https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...7&postcount=62