Or switch to Zeta. Holden skipped over Sigma for Zeta and Cadillac was going to use it for their flagship sedan so it is obviously as good or better than Sigma.

 

Zeta is cheaper than Sigma and can flex to create larger cars, (if that's what you consider "better"), but it is still too heavy and has no supporters at Cadillac. Once the Camaro and G8 run their course, Zeta is dead.

I think Caddy was considering Zeta for this role because they could develop a larger car than Sigma would allow. But once this program lost it's V8 and then it's turbo V6 and started taking on what some considered odd styling (think Holden Statesman with Caddy fascias) - no one was willing to fight for it.

 

In a world that STILL has the W-body being produced and updates of previous platforms (Delta II, Epsilon II, etc etc etc), am I the only one that finds it odd that these RWD platforms are just allowed to go away after producing a few vehicles?

I suppose Sigma will be used a considerable amount of time by the time it goes away though.

But, still...

 

As Charlie said Holden skipped Sigma for 2 reasons: 1) Zeta was created to be cheaper in an on car basis and 2) it can make larger cars. In Aus large cars sell, and they sell well. In Europe, China, Korea, and most of the world smaller cars are selling better (something Zeta wasn't designed to do). The US's love affair with SUVs is finally ending and people are moving to sedans again (and given what we saw last summer I think smaller cars will be much better sellers this go around).

Sigma has a compact version (OK it is closer to midsize) already done. It is theoretically roughly the same size as we hear Alpha is supposed to be and it is PAID FOR. I just don't see how it will be cost worthy to engineer an entirely new chassis when something so similar is already done and ready to go.

 

He did say that Cadillac's offerings are BECOMING competitive.

 

Development and tooling aside, I wonder if it simply is too expensive to build on. Also, getting high safety ratings on an older existing chassis will require a bit of re-engineering. And probably there are politics involved as well.

Not to mention moving everything around might have to do with GM wanting to push Cadillac into Europe. The current Escalade, SRX, and DTS have no potential there. Look at the upcoming BMW X6. It is already dead. In the US, the older X5 and X3 vehicles seem to be vanishing from the roads and not getting replaced - and that carries to Europe as well.

Really, Cadillac would need a RWD Alpha (Coupe, Sedan, Wagon) and a RWD Sigma/Zeta (Coupe, Sedan, Wagon) to fill the majority of a US/EU lineup. Then shove in the new (smaller) SRX in AWD format. People are going to notice the quality and feel of the interior, ride quality, and mpg long before the heritage of the chassis and how much power it has.

I agree that Cadillac should avoid FWD at all costs though, simply because we all know itd become a rebadge of another division.

Oh and GM needs to pull the trigger on diesels in the US. When I was in the UK the past few weeks, atleast 70% of BMW and Mercedes vehicles I saw on the road were diesels. Same with the Vauxhalls. Diesels galore.

 

well unless the guy is out doing alot of test driving not really sure how he would know other then internet pictures.

Ownership is also another story altogether.

 

The current CTS is the first Caddy that has come out since I've been impressed enough with to say it's on par of not superior to most of its competitors in most ways.

It was out when I got my 335i but there were three problems with it...

-I wanted to lease this go-round. Caddy's lease rates weren't even in the same ball park as BMW's (well, almost nobody's rates are, really except occasionally Infiniti). A 37k dollar base model CTS would end up costing me the same or even slightly more than a 47k dollar 335i

-One of the primary cool points of leasing is the ability to drive the **** out of a car without much concern for wear and tear or affecting how it will be holding up long term (after lease turn in). The 335i was definitely much more fun to beat on than the CTS

-My wife is one of the many people that just doesn't like the caddy brand name and wasn't keen on me getting one. She associates the name with senior citizens and thugs. I probably could have gotten her to change her mind but you know how women can be.

So while the CTS, IMO, presents a far better purchasing value, a far better ride to handling compromise, a far better interior, and far more impressive gagetry... the 335i won primarily because I was leasing.

Now this go-round I'm not leasing. I'm also probably not going to be looking at buying a mid-high 30k vehicle either. But if I was it would most likely come down to the CTS or the Genesis... both cars impress me quite a bit.

Since I'm looking more in the mid 20s range after discounts, the new Lacrosse is looking really interesting to me. I definitely will be giving GM a strong shot at my money here in October so long as I feel like they'll be around for warranty and part support.

As for the 4runner... well in October of 2004 when we got it I don't feel there was anything remotely competitive from GM for what we needed. I plan on keeping it for probably 7-10 more years so I'm not even looking at GM's SUVs right now.

I test drove the new CTS, the G37, 335i, IS, was already an Audi A4 owner at that time, and one of my best friends had an 05 TL... I figure I was and am still pretty well versed in that price range/class.

 

I really don't want to kick up this dust again...but I still fail to understand how you can think that regarding Zeta v. Sigma. Unless you think Sigma is too heavy as well. Then I get it.

 

Finally caught up to what I've been saying about Alpha, eh?



You aren't going to see any new RWD chassis from GM for some time. If Sigma and Zeta don't do it, the Espilon and Delta will.


IRS is heavy & expensive. Also, it's been proven that a live axle in and of itself has no bering in sales.

1. Cadillac isn't "reverting" back to anything. If Cadillac downsizes, then it will get an Espilon and it's SUV lines are migrating towards being crossovers which will be based on FWD architectures. The DTS is already FWD. The CTS isn't going anywhere. Even returning to the old Sigma sized CTS isn't impossible.

2. Beancounters, more than anything else, is exactly what GM needs at the moment.


Alpha simply isn't a critical program, and the turn of events of the past 4 months is bearing this out. Any vehicle built on an Alpha could be done on either an Espilon. The Alpha is a 4 cylinder based lightweight RWD platform that GM intended to sell via Holden, Pontiac, and Cadillac.

Holden is now getting Delta, and will be investing in improving the Zeta through the middle of next decade. Pontiac is about to reduced to just a couple of high performance models sold in Buick/GMC showrooms. Therefore, the question becomes is creating a new 4 cylinder centered RWD chassis going to give greater returns than basing cars on a FWD Espilon or Delta chassis. Is creating a baby Cadillac that can compete in Europe more important than creating a Cadillac that will sell in volume here in the US.

The answer is a nobrainer for a company that essentially has no money.

As was told to me last summer, a new Corvette would have a far higher priority than the Alpha... and the all new Corvette is postponed.

Alpha is dead.

 

There is alot of NIH (Not Invented Here) attitude behind the Zeta by some at GM. Then there is a contengent at GM that doesn't understand why they should go with a RWD platform when they have a perfectly good (and cheap) FWD one that can rake in far greater amounts of profit. You've seen some of the vicious debates I've had in favor of RWD... here on a frigging enthusiast site celebrating a RWD sports car??? Imagine trying to make the same points, and push aside the same myths at a company where there aren't enthusiasts celebrating a RWD sports car, but making the most money on the best car with the least investment humanly possible.

On the plus side, the Sigma and the Zeta will be around for quite a few years. You will still see them at the end of next decade the way the old B & A bodies stayed around for over a decade (the 3rd gen F-body stayed around... though slightly modified... for 20 years).

One often missed item that GM was actively considering a sedan based on the Camaro's Zeta.

The current CTS may became the largest Cadillac car, but that doesn't mean it's going to stagnate or go to FWD.


Still on the "Zeta is too heavy" kick, huh? All anyone has to do is compare the G8 to the CTS in size, volume (interior and trunk), and..... weight.

Not sure where you get your information on Zeta, but I'd consider trading up.

Cadillac wanted Zeta because it provided them with a superior handling chassis that cost less to produce than the Sigma, and was far more space efficient for it's size.

The reason why the Zeta was dropped was that GM changed the direction they wanted to go with Cadillac in the face of high fuel prices and their kneejerk reaction to CAFE that also killed (they call it "shelved") the Impala and the Buick Lucerne replacement. Although these were large cars, they would have been barely any bigger than the current DTS/Lucerne (the Impala would have been roughly the same size as the current Impala.. only wider), yet they would have been larger inside and in trunk space.

One also has to consider that if GM is in so bad shape right now they would be in bankruptcy today, GM must have gone into severe cash saving mode right around the same time they made decisions regarding postponing the DTS/Lucerne replacements.

After talking to some key folks, (and this part is purely opinion on my part) I strongly suspect that while the RWD Impala isn't likely to come back, Buick and/or Cadillac will end up with a Zeta sedan sedan once the dust settles.... even if it's imported.


Here's some little fun facts for those who still think Zeta is on it's last legs, is dying, is a dead end, or any other notions of the sort:

* Within 2 years, the ONLY Sigma car will be the Cadillac CTS, and it's roughly 60,000 cars annually (likely to jump to 75-80K annually with the coupe & wagon additions) will be the only Sigma's made.

* The Zeta, on the other hand will be made in 4 countries (Australia, China, Korea, and North America), sold on every continent, and whose production will total roughly 350,000 to 400,000 cars annually globally. It will also be sold by at least 6 GM name plates globally, and ironically Chevrolet (via Camaro, Lumina, & Caprice) will have the widest range of Zetas sold under any nameplate (in the Middle East, Latin America, and South Africa).

* Holden is also well underway on the next generation of Zeta. They already are finishing up a hybrid version.

Now... does it sound like Zeta is about to die?

If you had to pick between Sigma and Zeta, which architecture would you suspect is on it's last leg?

 

As usual Guy, wrong again.

The financial meltdown has stopped all spending on anything that doesn't have the "Volt" emblem on it. At this point, those who are controlling the purse strings don't even know if GM will survive and what form it'll take if it does.

Alpha is a high priority item - that is if/when GM ever has any money to spend again. Work has stopped, but it's not dead yet.

 

They're both on their death walk. Sigma may hang around abit longer than Zeta though.

 

See post 14.

 

I just did this last night with a friend, so I have it handy in my email...

__________CadillacCTS__PontiacG8__BMW528i__Charger SXT
Weight____3861________3885_______3505_____3783
Wheelbase_113.4_______114.8______113.7_____120
Height____58.0_________57.7_______57.8______58.2
Width_____72.5________74.8_______72.7______74.5
Trunk_____14ft_________18ft_______14ft______16ft
Power_____260_________250_______230_______250

The G8 is 24lb more than the CTS!!
But things change when you jump to the "Sport" versions...

__________CTSV_______G8GXP_____BMWM5__ChargerSRT
Weight____4222________4050_______4012____4160
Wheelbase_113.4_______114.8______113.7____120
Height_____57.3________57.7_______57.8_____57.7
Width_____72.5________74.8_______72.7_____74.5
Trunk_____14ft_________18ft_______14ft_____16ft
Power_____550_________410_______500______425

The Cadillac gains 361lb. The BMW gains 507lb. The dodge gains 377lb. The G8 gains a mere 165lb. At this point, the weight seems VERY realistic.

And when you realize the benefit of 4cuft of trunk space over the CTS AND more interior space AND a cheaper chassis... The Sigma stops making sense.