Z28Wilson

Fair enough. But can you really find an A4/A4 Quattro for those base MSRP prices? I would think those are really stripped vehicles. Add Nav, premium stereo, etc. and the price jumps quickly. The GS should be loaded up with pretty much everything Buick offers for a few grand more than the base A4.

jg95z28

Or maybe GM is waiting for after they launch their IPO to announce a Regal GSX.

Z28x

Does the Opel version have the M6? for some reason I though all the AWD cars were auto.

Jason E

1) I should be able to get BOTH AWD and a manual if Buick is serious...especially if its ALREADY OFFERED ELSEWHERE. Remember, Buick has to be BETER THAN, not EQUAL TO, its competitiors in every facet to be considered seriously. GM needs to underpromise and overdeliver. As Charlie accurately pointed out, they did the polar opposite here, and they are getting cremated on the web right now. I read the comments under the C&D preview...everyone is saying the same thing I am!

2) I understand the concept of MPG...so turn the wick up harder and let it get 18/27...still a whole lot better than 15/24 in the Saab, but not as good as the 19/29 as the regular turbo. I'd bet they could do it.

3) There is no question in my mind AWD should be OPTIONAL. Everyone here is complaining about how the car could be too expensive or heavy with AWD. So make it OPTIONAL.

Listen...I get what this car is, and really do like this car. But I'll tell you something...it is harder than ever to get people to part with their money. As a lot of you know, I deal with this fact every stinking day. This is the first new model launch from GM in 2 years that is sincerely underbaked. My wife and I are definitely within the crosshairs of the target market for this car...2 upper-middle class professionals and are current GM owners ('04 Comp G). For me to spend $35,000, potentially more, on this car, it'd better have...

1) AWD...I hate torque steer, and in the Northeast AWD is something my wife would love to have. Yes, around here, we'd use it.
2) 300hp. I won't buy it with less.

I can get both in a Charger R/T for a little more than that, and its a significantly larger vehicle with killer styling and 370hp. It also gets 16/25 MPG...I'll sacrifice a few MPG for a Hemi and AWD.

So there you go...1 armchair quarterback's opinion on the $35,000 sport/luxo sedan market. Even being a die-hard GM owner, I wouldn't buy this car...and it sucks, because I really, really wanted to. After owning the GTP for 5 years, a regular CXL Turbo won't have the oomph for even my wife (she bitches every time I bring home a 4 cylinder demo she has to drive ), and if I'm going to spend $35,000 plus, this is a NICE car...

But not the best I even have $2,600 in GM Card Points burning a hole in my pocket that are starting to expire...

Geoff Chadwick

You're right, 45k Euros does translate that high - but car costs are VERY different between the US and the UK. There is no "apples to apples" comparison. Even a "Prestige" S4 books at $53,000 USD.

You'll say the Opel (as sold over there) would thusly cost $50,000 USD, and with that engine and such might come close. Can't argue that. But I don't know the impact of making a Regal line over here (and our manufacturing costs vs Europe) and what content they would change/alter for US sale. Still, it would be one crazy expensive buick.

That said, my GTP was like $29k new when it was on the lot in 98. That translates to roughly $42k - or - a G8 GXP from a few years ago, or, to a $45k Regal GS today (which by that inflation means Corvettes are getting cheaper by the year!).

The problem is, my complaints about my GTP:
The Seats (can't do much with those)
The Brakes (I upgraded to 12" twin piston brakes from 10.9" single piston)
The Slushbox (Can't really fix that!)
Being FWD

My praises for my GTP:
Decent handling (pretty darn good with some basic mods)
Good MPG (30mpg highway consistently even with 130k on the odo)
Good power to weight ratio
HUD is my favorite feature ever.

Speaking of manufacturing, does anyone think the AWD omission might be because the cars are built here in the US and there was a manufacturing/supply problem with the AWD components? That thought occurred to me last night...
I bet. But at the same point (as you said) Buick needs to be more product for less money in order to overtake the competition. If the competition is Audi/BMW/Lexus/Mercedes, they're playing in Cadillac's turf. If the competition is Infiniti/Acura, the Buick CXL Turbo is ALREADY overpriced out of it's competition as a "sports sedan".
The problem is we don't know if one of those is coming. If it comes, then more power would be great. If it isn't coming, then that's not so great. If it was AWD though, that stage 1 kit would be worth even more power, so people will feel cheated even if we *do* get the kit.

And when Buick is removing Recaros from the Regal, the CTS has the Recaros option at $2800 for non V models, effectively making them *easier* to get your hands on.

HAZ-Matt

Some of the comparisons being thrown around are all over the place, which is probably why so many random internet people are having fits. Bashing GM is a fun internet sport anyway, especially since the bailout.

Regarding the power, GM never said that they were working on a different motor or more power. That was all internet nonsense invented by the likes of InsideLine and others. In fact Buick claimed in January that they went from the 2.8L V6 in the Opel to the 2.0L turbo because the 2.8L lost power when tuned for US emissions and that they ended up with similar power to weight ratios with the 2.0L because it saved some weight. It's competition, namely Audi A4, Lexus IS, Acura TSX, and even the Lincoln MKZ, aren't the fastest cars ever made anyway. A4 has 211HP with no optional engine, the TSX 280HP V6 costs a good deal more than the base and is only FWD, IS350 starts at $38k, and the MKZ with the 3.5L 263HP motor is automatic only.

As far as the AWD, I suppose that is a reasonable gripe. Some of their key competitors offers AWD (A4, IS, maybe MKZ if anyone actually buys those), even if they get quite expensive when so equipped. Maybe they will come to their senses and offer it... who knows.

And as far as the Charger, who is cross shopping these cars? I guess they both have four doors... one is much more of a luxury car than the other one. One has over a foot more wheelbase. If you really like power then you aren't looking for any of the cars in the GS's class anyway... A4, IS, TSX, MKZ. In the low to mid $30k's you are stuck in the low to mid 200HP range and need to go to high $30's to think about high 200-300HP... If you want 300HP and AWD only the IS350 AWD offers that and it is over $40k.

It would be nice if GM could have made a 300HP AWD Regal with a 6 speed, comparable interior and NVH for only $30k, but nobody else does so what sort of magic were they supposed to use? Since O'Donnell lost maybe they can hire her as a consultant to use some witchcraft to get the cars to build themselves and bring costs down.

Jason E

My point is this. How much MORE does it really cost to produce this engine with more HP, and what are the supporting equipment cost increases?? I do not dispute the quality of the chassis, tires, wheels, etc.

We know you can get a 220hp version of this engine for under $30k. So, for bigger wheels, a beefy 6 speed, and more boost, what does it really COST? Couldn't they have turned up the wick a bit, and made AWD optional, and really made a splash here for not a ton more cash?

That's all I'm saying. Just because no one else has done it...does that mean they shouldn't, either? They had the ability...for cheaper than what a lot of people think, I imagine.

94LightningGal

Actually, Nick (nsap) on GMI did speak with engineers when the car was released in concept form. They were the ones who talked about working on upping the horsepower. Thus, it is not an internet rumor.

This reeks of beancounter decontenting................. which reeks of old GM. This is why the car is being destroyed on the internet.

Z28Wilson

C'mon, because one engineer makes some off-the-cuff remark about looking for more horsepower it's assumed that is what will happen? Was this even an on-the-record conversation? You think the people at sites like Jalopnik even know about said conversation?

GM routinely gets crucified on the internet for just about everything they have done lately (except the ZR1 ). Again I will say, if GM brought the Insignia OPC over here and stickered it above $40,000 like they would need to they'd get crucified for that too. It'd go something like

msgZ28

I imagine anyone looking at a mid to high $30k car. I know when I was shopping for a new car, I was looking at everything from a Fiesta to an Infinity G37 Sport. My only make or break condition was a manual transmission and sedan or wagon format. Plusses were for RWD or AWD and power / sport suspension for me, and price for the wife. Contrary to popular belief, people don't pick a segment like "compact sedan" and shop only those cars.

I don't know who is crucifying GM over everything they do, especially here. I think that 90% of what they're doing is GREAT, but wish that they would put more models with a manual and a decent engine. The GS comes close, but for that price (provided the speculation of $35k+ is correct), then I can get more for my money elsewhere. Especially if they ever make the Charger with a manual.

Indelibility

Not saying you personally, but only an idiot would compare a Buick with an Evo. On top of that, the Evo starts at $34,xxx. That's for a whole lotta performance with a sub-par interior.

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/01/07/b...ishield-brand/
From the very beginning Buick was stating that the GS would use the turbo 2.0, at the price would be around $36,xxx and o-60 under 6 seconds. Now they give us what the promised...mostly.

HAZ-Matt

Ok so they were on the record then? If you have the time and don't mind could you shoot me a link? Not trying to be obnoxious, but I saw a fair amount of people saying all sorts of things about possible powertrains for this car including the 3.6L DI V6, but none named any engineers and so seemed like idle speculation. Also without context, how do I know that doesn't just mean they are working on spark, boost, or exhaust tuning to get a few more ponies out of the 2.0L?

When Car and Driver discussed the concept in January at Detroit they said this:

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car...ept-auto_shows

I suppose you can say it is spin if you want, but it sounds like it is pretty clear that for whatever reason they chose the 2.0L and were not in fact planning on any other powertrains.

This is of course all in regards to the GS. I don't think it is too late to rule out AWD as a future option, nor is it outside the realm of possibility that they will offer a more powerful engine in a Regal variant in the future...

I don't think the Regal lineup is optimum, but as long as the GS is is well equipped for several thousand under $40k it won't be too misaligned with the competition. Honestly the biggest flaw in the whole lineup is the non-turbo engine in the lower trim which probably shouldn't even exist.

So we will see soon enough. Depending on the price structure and if the HiPerStruts actually deliver what the engineers promise this car can be competitive. We'll also see if the Brembos help the brake feel. And hopefully they put summer tires on it (or at least make them optional). Otherwise there isn't much else that has really been complained about for the Regal. It is quiet, the steering is like the only GM steering C&D has ever said something positive about, and the interior is pretty decent.

HAZ-Matt

Obviously price segment is an important factor and I would imagine pretty much every buyer has a segment in mind when they set about looking for a car. But to stick to the original example, the Charger is a good deal larger and less luxurious. The Regal is targeted at someone that wants entry luxury, just like the A4 or the TSX. The Charger is more the RWD alternative to Taurus, Maxima, and Impala... And it is being sold on the basis of some sort of performance cred. Essentially, if someone values performance the most then it makes sense, but if they value luxury over performance then the Charger makes no sense compared to A4, TSX, or Regal.

And while I won't deride anyone for an open mind, how seriously were you honestly considering a Fiesta versus a G37 sport? To me that sounds pretty ludicrous just typing it. They are even less alike than the Charger and the Regal. Fleeting thoughts of "we could save a bunch of money and gas if we buy the much slower, much smaller, less nicely appointed Fiesta" compared to the Infiniti don't really count.

And before we get any anecdotes about cross shopping Aveos and Veyrons or Sierra HD's and Priuses, I think that really is a buyer who hasn't narrowed down in their mind what sort of priorities they have and which ones are important and is trying out an assortment of cars to figure it out rather than real cross shopping.

Jason E

1) As someone who currently owns FIVE GM vehicles, and has owned nothing but GM vehicles for 14 years, save for 1 pickup, I dare say I'm a GM fan. And I have every right to be irked by this one. If they want people to take Buick seriously, they need to over-deliver. Ford did that with the SHO. Big time. This car did not. The SHO is over 100hp more AND HAS AWD. Some people seem to forget about that car in this comparison mix.

2) If you cannot believe I'd compare a Charger and a Regal, then you really have no idea how actual buyers think. I've had people come in for a 300 and leave in a Wrangler. I had a guy come in yesterday for a $15,000 used pickup and left in a new Caliber. You never know WHAT people are going to compare a vehicle to. Its obvious you've never worked in car sales. If you had, you'd know better than to say that.

Caps94ZODG

Like said..GM should eat it. This car is going to sit on the lot the way they are bringing it over. It was on a lot of plates now its taken off.

AWD or M6?? Depends on where you live? I would love AWD..

At least the HP had to be 300 to be considered in this catagory. 300 would get a lot of things looked over.

Like I said..GM could lose money either way. Eat the costs of building it and bring it here for 45K in US dollars. Eat the 17 grand..yea I know thats a lot ..but compared to not building more than they hoped to since its stilling on toe lot because people are buying an Audi or something else..

your right GM promised more than they could give and they blew it and now you see the reaction.