View Poll Results: Would you rather have CAFE or a gas tax?
Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll
Bob Lutz quote got me thinking about CAFE & fuel taxes
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 929
How about we use fuel taxes to create an infrastructure for alternative fuels that existing Internal combustion engines can run-on. Trying to attack the problem by punitive measures such as CAFE or overly high Gas taxes are both wrong-headed ideas. Let's push the positives rather than the negatives with do-able changes that lead to genuine energy independence. We certainly aren't going to conserve our way into it. Social manipulation via artificial standards/taxes is a silly approach, and short-sighted.
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Joined: Jan 2004
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Registered User
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,600
From: Pewee Valley, KY
How about we use fuel taxes to create an infrastructure for alternative fuels that existing Internal combustion engines can run-on. Trying to attack the problem by punitive measures such as CAFE or overly high Gas taxes are both wrong-headed ideas. Let's push the positives rather than the negatives with do-able changes that lead to genuine energy independence. We certainly aren't going to conserve our way into it. Social manipulation via artificial standards/taxes is a silly approach, and short-sighted.
Really? For the last two years you never heard a peep out of anyone bitching about high gas prices? 
While it's true that companies such as ExxonMobil had record profits during this time, their profit margins were by no means outlandish. Lots of companies had far higher profit margins, but because their raw numbers simply weren't as big as ExxonMobil's, they didn't warrant the sensational headlines.
And if you own any mutual funds at all, guess what, you are almost certainly one of the shareholders benefiting from high oil prices. Do you not expect a reasonable return on your investment portfolio? I sure do.
I've long been an advocate of higher gasoline taxes as a means of promoting conservation. It definitely works Canada, where our best selling car for years has been the Civic, and the Cavalier for years before that. It also works in Europe and Japan. The best way to influence any market is to target the demand side (e.g. taxes) not the supply side (e.g. CAFE).
The only downfall, as noted above, is that gas taxes end up as politicians' slush money to fund their pet projects. In Canada the total amount of money raised by the governments on gas taxes, licenses, etc. far exceeds what is put back into our transportation infrastructure. But if the primary purpose of a gas tax policy is to reduce consumption, then the (mis)use of the tax windfall is only a secondary consideration.
While it's true that companies such as ExxonMobil had record profits during this time, their profit margins were by no means outlandish. Lots of companies had far higher profit margins, but because their raw numbers simply weren't as big as ExxonMobil's, they didn't warrant the sensational headlines.
And if you own any mutual funds at all, guess what, you are almost certainly one of the shareholders benefiting from high oil prices. Do you not expect a reasonable return on your investment portfolio? I sure do.
I've long been an advocate of higher gasoline taxes as a means of promoting conservation. It definitely works Canada, where our best selling car for years has been the Civic, and the Cavalier for years before that. It also works in Europe and Japan. The best way to influence any market is to target the demand side (e.g. taxes) not the supply side (e.g. CAFE).
The only downfall, as noted above, is that gas taxes end up as politicians' slush money to fund their pet projects. In Canada the total amount of money raised by the governments on gas taxes, licenses, etc. far exceeds what is put back into our transportation infrastructure. But if the primary purpose of a gas tax policy is to reduce consumption, then the (mis)use of the tax windfall is only a secondary consideration.
Registered User
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,887
From: northeast Miss.
The only way to reduce consumption is to raise prices. It's worked every time. Fuel prices got up to over $3 per gallon, and what happened? Large vehicle sales got soft, economy car sales increased, manufacturers accelerated investment back into cars and crossovers instead of throwing vaults full of money at large trucks, and keeping new competitive cars on the slow track to development.
I do find it absolutely amazing, and flabberghasted that when oil companies jack prices by 1.50 to $2 per gallon, where the money is going into someone's pockets via bonuses, stockholder dividents, or bigger executive wages, you don't hear a peep out of anyone.
Yet the mere idea that the government raises taxes on gas just $1, anti-tax people come out of the woodwork complete with horror stories of the government taking the money and spending it on some wasteful pork item.
So.......
it's perfectly OK to jack prices up so a few can get richer (look up the profit levels of the last couple of years of high fuel prices.... it wasn't OPEC this time), yet the idea that 10 cents of that dollar might go towards something that might be considered waste, why that's insane! Even the idea that the bulk of that might go towards something else other than highways is unexceptable.
One place the money might go: http://costofwar.com/index.html
Look, CAFE is a joke. If forces companies to attempt to manupulate the market, which doesn't work. Fuel standards for different classes of vehicles makes more sense, but still doesn't influence buying habits. Alternative fuels and alternative powerplants won't make sense until the value of them is comparable to the traditional gasoline and diesel powered vehicles.
I'd rather see 80 cents of an additional tax go towards something worthwhile than to see periods where I'm helping to finance someone's kids & grand kids private school, Ivy league college, and summer homes and mansions for the whole family. Next to that, I think I can live with 10 or 20 cents going to some pork project going to one of you guy's area that does me no good.
I do find it absolutely amazing, and flabberghasted that when oil companies jack prices by 1.50 to $2 per gallon, where the money is going into someone's pockets via bonuses, stockholder dividents, or bigger executive wages, you don't hear a peep out of anyone.
Yet the mere idea that the government raises taxes on gas just $1, anti-tax people come out of the woodwork complete with horror stories of the government taking the money and spending it on some wasteful pork item.
So.......
it's perfectly OK to jack prices up so a few can get richer (look up the profit levels of the last couple of years of high fuel prices.... it wasn't OPEC this time), yet the idea that 10 cents of that dollar might go towards something that might be considered waste, why that's insane! Even the idea that the bulk of that might go towards something else other than highways is unexceptable.
One place the money might go: http://costofwar.com/index.html
Look, CAFE is a joke. If forces companies to attempt to manupulate the market, which doesn't work. Fuel standards for different classes of vehicles makes more sense, but still doesn't influence buying habits. Alternative fuels and alternative powerplants won't make sense until the value of them is comparable to the traditional gasoline and diesel powered vehicles.
I'd rather see 80 cents of an additional tax go towards something worthwhile than to see periods where I'm helping to finance someone's kids & grand kids private school, Ivy league college, and summer homes and mansions for the whole family. Next to that, I think I can live with 10 or 20 cents going to some pork project going to one of you guy's area that does me no good.
That, and we all know how poorly the Gov't executes these good ideas.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 10,285
From: Albany, NY
Another option instead of raising gasoline tax could simply be to stop subsidizing the oil industry. The Oil gets many unfair tax advantages. I've read that if we taxed the oil industry the same as every other industry in this country gasoline would be over $5 a gallon. So in a sense we already pay huge amounts of tax for gasoline, except we pay it on April 15th instead of at every fill up.
WOW 
New York State alone could have afforded to put a man on Mars, build 300MPH train systems through out the state and buy a nuclear power aircraft carrier for that money (yes those are the real costs)
One place the money might go: http://costofwar.com/index.html
New York State alone could have afforded to put a man on Mars, build 300MPH train systems through out the state and buy a nuclear power aircraft carrier for that money (yes those are the real costs)
Last edited by Z28x; Jan 19, 2007 at 12:13 PM.
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 561
From: Charlotte NC
Oil company profit margins have remained the same despite the high gas prices. It simply costs more to produce, distribute, prospect and sell gas these days. One of the major reasons is because people who dont know what they are talking about blame greed of oil companies and enact laws against them.
Take for example the newest of idiot ideas to pass windfall profit taxes and cut industry incentives by our new Democratic government.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...102702399.html
Down with the evil Corporations!!!!! 
me a river. I dont see Nancy Pelosi going after Apple for selling Ipods. Damn Hypocrites.
Take for example the newest of idiot ideas to pass windfall profit taxes and cut industry incentives by our new Democratic government.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...102702399.html
For instance, in 2004 Exxon Mobil earned more money -- $25.33 billion -- than any other company on the Fortune 500 list of largest corporations. But by another measure of profitability, gross profit margin, it ranked No. 127.
me a river. I dont see Nancy Pelosi going after Apple for selling Ipods. Damn Hypocrites.
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 808
From: manassas, VA
lol, living in northern VA that's exactly what i've been doing for the past couple years. All the people i work with who bought houses 5 years ago have seen their house near triple in value in that time. These same people would then bitch about $3.50/gallon and how that's not fair. They'd get real quiet when you told them to sell their house and use the $400k PROFIT they make to fund their gasoline purchases for the next several generations of their family.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 10,285
From: Albany, NY
Apple doesn't get the tax advantages the oil industry does. iPods don't pollute or cost of Billions in health care cost. ipods are not the economical life blood of this country.
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Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,947
From: Springfield,OH. U.S.A.
Down with the evil Corporations!!!!! me a river. I dont see Nancy Pelosi going after Apple for selling Ipods. Damn Hypocrites.
Now, when the economy is really crappy, and many people are barely affording to keep gas in the tank to get to work & school, there's NO excuse for the "record profits" with "record high prices" bordering on price gouging.
Why not just double the price of Electricity as well????(sarcasm)
where the money is going into someone's pockets via bonuses, stockholder dividents, or bigger executive wages,
Only a cancer consumes itself to death like this...
Last edited by 90rocz; Jan 20, 2007 at 12:12 AM.
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Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 666
From: Stockton, Ca. USA
If I remember correct, didnt this country go to war because our taxes were getting out of control.
Why in the world would you want higher taxes knowing the way the gov is so wasteful with our tax dollars. These guys are like crack addicts when it come to our tax dollars. they can never have enough. Penalaizing people through higher taxes is bull****. Incentives work so much better.
Why in the world would you want higher taxes knowing the way the gov is so wasteful with our tax dollars. These guys are like crack addicts when it come to our tax dollars. they can never have enough. Penalaizing people through higher taxes is bull****. Incentives work so much better.
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,400
From: Michigan's left coast
The tax system in our country is such that there are very few products for which we pay the "real" price. Fix it, though, and I'm sure that it'd cause massive economic upheaval.
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 561
From: Charlotte NC
You don't "need" an ipod to get to work.
Now, when the economy is really crappy, and many people are barely affording to keep gas in the tank to get to work & school, there's NO excuse for the "record profits" with "record high prices" bordering on price gouging.
Why not just double the price of Electricity as well????(sarcasm)
Exactly...this is a type of consumption, consumption of Americans hard earned money, money that could spur the economy better if it went toward purchasing goods, not gas...gas only benefits oil companies and their investors, which the bulk of Americans are neither.
Only a cancer consumes itself to death like this...
Now, when the economy is really crappy, and many people are barely affording to keep gas in the tank to get to work & school, there's NO excuse for the "record profits" with "record high prices" bordering on price gouging.
Why not just double the price of Electricity as well????(sarcasm)
Exactly...this is a type of consumption, consumption of Americans hard earned money, money that could spur the economy better if it went toward purchasing goods, not gas...gas only benefits oil companies and their investors, which the bulk of Americans are neither.
Only a cancer consumes itself to death like this...
Yes there were record profits. Now listen carefully, there were record costs also. Thats right its called profit margin. Say it all together now, ProFteaat MArrginnn.
Lawmakers depend on people like you so they can play to your hearts and stay in power. Let me guess you think "price gouging" (if you can even explain legally what it is) is bad. You think having a trade deficit is a "failure" of this administration.
Lastly you think you have a clue about what your talking about. Pick up a book...Not written by a Marxist and get a clue about economics.
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Joined: Nov 1998
Posts: 3,252
From: Knoxville, TN
Exactly...this is a type of consumption, consumption of Americans hard earned money, money that could spur the economy better if it went toward purchasing goods, not gas...gas only benefits oil companies and their investors, which the bulk of Americans are neither. Only a cancer consumes itself to death like this...
Do you think a bigger tax on oil/gas will hurt those "super rich" oil executives? Is the real problem simply that they are rich and you or your neighbor are not, and gosh darn it, that just ain't fair? And because it isn't fair, we need the gov't to step in and MAKE it fair?
Hmmm....ya....we need a more socialist society. One in which the gov't decides who makes how much.
No thanks. I'd much prefer CAFE to giving the gov't more of my money.
BTW...those that say the extra tax should go to roads, infrastracture, whatever are just kidding yourselves. Extra money into the gov't means extra money the gov't spends on whatever it thinks is necessary - which generally involves whatever it takes to get them re-elected. Sort of like the Lottery that is supposed to support only education. I suppose it probably does. Problem is, now the gov't has another source of money for education, so they use the money previously spent on that for something else...like a pet project in their district that will get them re-elected. Or perhaps more welfare. Or maybe that wonderful universal health care that we should all be paying for.
/rant.
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Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 455
From: Stafford, Va
/history lesson
Bob, welcome home! Glad to see that you made it back safe!
