Alpha program in doubt?
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Alpha program in doubt?
http://www.automochatter.com/forum/s...ted=1#post1099
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../70312001/1528
Decision Time
GM to rule on CTS family for Cadillac within three months
By DAVE GUILFORD | AUTOMOTIVE NEWS
AutoWeek | Published 03/12/07, 7:40 am et
GENEVA -- Over the next three months or so, General Motors executives will decide whether to produce a new Cadillac CTS wagon and coupe, the next step in Cadillac's rebirth as a global brand.
Hoping to build on the successful debut of the CTS in the United States, General Motors could create a CTS family of models reminiscent of the BMW 3 series. If Cadillac expands its presence in Europe, it could afford to build niche vehicles like a wagon that otherwise would face a marginal future as U.S.-only cars.
GM already has produced clay models of these new Cadillacs. In the near future, it will decide whether to OK development, say GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz and Cadillac General Manager Jim Taylor.
Starting in the late 1990s, GM jump-started Cadillac's fortunes with sharp-edged design, luxury SUVs and rear-wheel-drive cars. Now Taylor and Lutz want to build more momentum.
During interviews at the Geneva auto show, both executives explained their plans to make Cadillac competitive with Lexus, BMW and Mercedes-Benz. They also voiced varying opinions about some Cadillac issues, offering a revealing glimpse of GM's internal give-and-take.
As Cadillac enters the second phase of its revival, they must decide:
Whether to approve a long-delayed ultra-luxury car costing more than $150,000.
Whether Cadillac needs an entry-level model priced under $30,000. Taylor is reluctant; he prefers to keep the CTS as Cadillac's lowest-priced car. Lutz says he is open to an entry-level Cadillac, but it won't be the European BLS sedan.
Whether to keep or discontinue the front-wheel-drive DTS sedan, Cadillac's top-selling nameplate. Taylor says he's undecided; Lutz prefers to phase it out and keep the rwd STS.
Front-wheel drive does not match the brand image of global luxury Cadillac is seeking. But the DTS was Cadillac's top seller last year, with U.S. sales of 58,224. The DTS accounted for 25.6 percent - about one-quarter of the brand's U.S. volume.
Taylor said GM could put the DTS on the Zeta rwd platform, which will be used for the coming Pontiac G8; merge it with the STS line; or keep it in its current form.
But in a separate interview, Lutz flatly stated that the DTS replacement should be rwd.
Selling more vehicles outside Cadillac's traditional U.S. stronghold would make it easier to build a business case for niche vehicles, Taylor said. Higher sales volumes would allow GM to achieve economies of scale currently enjoyed by key competitors BMW and Mercedes.
"If all you have is your U.S. volume, it's pretty hard to put together a capital case," Taylor said.
The CTS wagon in particular would be stronger in Europe than the United States, and would aid GM's struggle to build the brand there, he said. To be successful, it must achieve annual global sales of 20,000 units, Taylor said. For comparison, GM sold 54,846 CTS units in the United States last year.
Small Caddy?
Lutz said GM will not bring the European BLS, a front-drive car that shares parts with the Saab 9-3, to the United States. As for a small rwd vehicle, "there's certainly an opening, whether we choose to fill it or not," Lutz said.
Taylor takes the opposite view. He says GM doesn't need a smaller car slotted below the CTS. The smaller car would compete with cars such as the Audi A3 and the coming BMW 1 series and would sell in the upper $20,000s.
Says Taylor: "We're not going there. We're a $30,000-to-$40,000 player, not a $20,000-to-$30,000 player."
At the upper end of the lineup, the two executives say they are considering an ultra-luxury car to enhance Cadillac's brand prestige. Both mentioned the Sixteen and Cien concepts as possible models. The Sixteen is a large sedan with a V-16 engine and the Cien a futuristic V-12 sports car.
But Lutz and Taylor say the ultra-luxury program keeps getting delayed. Said Lutz: "We always wind up pushing it out one more year because we have other, more pressing priorities."
Decision Time
GM to rule on CTS family for Cadillac within three months
By DAVE GUILFORD | AUTOMOTIVE NEWS
AutoWeek | Published 03/12/07, 7:40 am et
GENEVA -- Over the next three months or so, General Motors executives will decide whether to produce a new Cadillac CTS wagon and coupe, the next step in Cadillac's rebirth as a global brand.
Hoping to build on the successful debut of the CTS in the United States, General Motors could create a CTS family of models reminiscent of the BMW 3 series. If Cadillac expands its presence in Europe, it could afford to build niche vehicles like a wagon that otherwise would face a marginal future as U.S.-only cars.
GM already has produced clay models of these new Cadillacs. In the near future, it will decide whether to OK development, say GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz and Cadillac General Manager Jim Taylor.
Starting in the late 1990s, GM jump-started Cadillac's fortunes with sharp-edged design, luxury SUVs and rear-wheel-drive cars. Now Taylor and Lutz want to build more momentum.
During interviews at the Geneva auto show, both executives explained their plans to make Cadillac competitive with Lexus, BMW and Mercedes-Benz. They also voiced varying opinions about some Cadillac issues, offering a revealing glimpse of GM's internal give-and-take.
As Cadillac enters the second phase of its revival, they must decide:
Whether to approve a long-delayed ultra-luxury car costing more than $150,000.
Whether Cadillac needs an entry-level model priced under $30,000. Taylor is reluctant; he prefers to keep the CTS as Cadillac's lowest-priced car. Lutz says he is open to an entry-level Cadillac, but it won't be the European BLS sedan.
Whether to keep or discontinue the front-wheel-drive DTS sedan, Cadillac's top-selling nameplate. Taylor says he's undecided; Lutz prefers to phase it out and keep the rwd STS.
Front-wheel drive does not match the brand image of global luxury Cadillac is seeking. But the DTS was Cadillac's top seller last year, with U.S. sales of 58,224. The DTS accounted for 25.6 percent - about one-quarter of the brand's U.S. volume.
Taylor said GM could put the DTS on the Zeta rwd platform, which will be used for the coming Pontiac G8; merge it with the STS line; or keep it in its current form.
But in a separate interview, Lutz flatly stated that the DTS replacement should be rwd.
Selling more vehicles outside Cadillac's traditional U.S. stronghold would make it easier to build a business case for niche vehicles, Taylor said. Higher sales volumes would allow GM to achieve economies of scale currently enjoyed by key competitors BMW and Mercedes.
"If all you have is your U.S. volume, it's pretty hard to put together a capital case," Taylor said.
The CTS wagon in particular would be stronger in Europe than the United States, and would aid GM's struggle to build the brand there, he said. To be successful, it must achieve annual global sales of 20,000 units, Taylor said. For comparison, GM sold 54,846 CTS units in the United States last year.
Small Caddy?
Lutz said GM will not bring the European BLS, a front-drive car that shares parts with the Saab 9-3, to the United States. As for a small rwd vehicle, "there's certainly an opening, whether we choose to fill it or not," Lutz said.
Taylor takes the opposite view. He says GM doesn't need a smaller car slotted below the CTS. The smaller car would compete with cars such as the Audi A3 and the coming BMW 1 series and would sell in the upper $20,000s.
Says Taylor: "We're not going there. We're a $30,000-to-$40,000 player, not a $20,000-to-$30,000 player."
At the upper end of the lineup, the two executives say they are considering an ultra-luxury car to enhance Cadillac's brand prestige. Both mentioned the Sixteen and Cien concepts as possible models. The Sixteen is a large sedan with a V-16 engine and the Cien a futuristic V-12 sports car.
But Lutz and Taylor say the ultra-luxury program keeps getting delayed. Said Lutz: "We always wind up pushing it out one more year because we have other, more pressing priorities."
Last edited by Z284ever; Mar 12, 2007 at 03:25 PM.
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If Cadillac doesn't sign on for the Alpha program, I'm not sure if the business case can be made to develop this all new architecture just for Pontiac (or Holden).
That would put Pontiac's future product portfolio up in the air.
That would put Pontiac's future product portfolio up in the air.
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Alpha would be able to handle the sport compact segment, and create a more or less new segment - compact sports sedan, correct?
I don't think there's anything in the compact sedan class that could be considered "sporty". Pontiac could carve out a niche for themselves in that area. I think there'd be a market for that type of car.
I don't think there's anything in the compact sedan class that could be considered "sporty". Pontiac could carve out a niche for themselves in that area. I think there'd be a market for that type of car.
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Why couldn't Alpha be Pontiac/Holden and Opel? I say Opel because there seems to be a market for small rear wheel drive cars in Europe (they invented them, afterall).
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From: Port Royal, JM
Caddy may not need to compete with the BMW 1 series, but they do need to compete with the 3 series. Generally the CTS is always compared to the larger 5 series, so a small step down into 3 series territory is as far down as they need to go.
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Maybe not in the USA, but what about Europe, Asia, and Canada? Small cars sell better there.
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From: Mack and Bewick
They definetly need a smaller Caddy, for here and for Europe. With all the hand wringing about gas prices even the big time luxury players are investing in their small cars, Cadillac needs to do the same.
Additionally, If Zeta can underpin everything from Impala to DTS, why cant this platform be for Pontiac and Cadillac. Long story short, no one but us could tell you Zeta, Sigma and Alpha are anything other than fraternities anyway..
When you consider that Holden, Cadillac, and Pontiac, and probably Saab have a pretty serious need of a car like this, I think its an obvious decision...
As for the DTS thing, Zeta is AWD compatible so if you were careful with marketing and the price Im sure you could get the foggies into it without them even noticing.
Additionally, If Zeta can underpin everything from Impala to DTS, why cant this platform be for Pontiac and Cadillac. Long story short, no one but us could tell you Zeta, Sigma and Alpha are anything other than fraternities anyway..
When you consider that Holden, Cadillac, and Pontiac, and probably Saab have a pretty serious need of a car like this, I think its an obvious decision...
As for the DTS thing, Zeta is AWD compatible so if you were careful with marketing and the price Im sure you could get the foggies into it without them even noticing.
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Id cross shop them but if your in the market as my brother is, he really has 3 choices, 335i, IS350 and G35. I want him to test drive the G8 because if he likes it hed save 15k. If Alpha is no bigger than the one series then that means the whole 3 series size cars were skipped.And why is the latest CTS well the size of a Caddillac? I liked that the last CTS was a little more compact. There were plenty of other big caddy cars in their line up. This just released CTS should have been the STS.
Last edited by 5thgen69camaro; Mar 17, 2007 at 04:12 PM.
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Don't read too much into all this just yet. There were key people against the Camaro project too.
Here's the scoop distilled into it's simpleist form: If the thing can be done profitably, it will be approved. If not, then it won't. Cadillac is irrelevent in all this because Holden (and therefore Pontiac) are going to be the divisions to drive this thing. If you want to look into the future, this will also likely be the basis of the 6th gen F-body (or it's replacement) and other cars for other GM divisions here if fuel and greenhouse standards go up.
In short, an annual production of 55,000 Cadillacs (the CTS's production rate) isn't going to make or break the project when there's another 150,000 that can be sold through Pontiac (G6) another 60,000 that can be sold &/or exported via Holden to just the Asian-Pacific countries (less than 1/2 of VE's production), and perhaps another 50,000 plus that can be sold in Europe.
Cadillac's General Manager, Jim Taylor does (rightfully) question whether Cadillac should be part of the program. If Cadillac is to continue to become the standard of the world again (and becomes to GM what Jaguar is supposed to be to Ford and Mercedes is supposed to be to DaimlerChrysler... a brand that is known the world over as a top luxury division) a small sub-$30,000 car is probally NOT a welcome addition. In Europe, BMW isn't know as the luxury car brand as it is here in the US. BMW is sort of the mini-GM of Europe, offering a full line of cars. Jim Taylor isn't dead set against a Cadillac "Alpha". He simply isn't yet convinced. I'm not either.
On the other hand, Bob Lutz is finally on a roll now that cars with his fingerprints on it are coming out to good reviews and sales, GM has turned the corner financially, and GM can now do a new car faster (and cheaper) than the company's ability get the finished car into production. He has a way of cutting through convintional thinking that GM's board is now converts of. Example: Traditionally, it's been viewed as too expensive to bring German made opels here to sell due to the dollar exchange rates. He based the entire Saturn Astra argument on the fact the GM-NA wouldn't have to spend a single dime on developing a car to be sold here, and therefore more than made up for the difference in cost of assembly. And he was right. He's at his peak of influence at GM right now, and if he believes the "Alpha" should go forward, it will. If he belives Cadillac needs a version, Jim Taylor needs to stay up late to assemble a case proving otherwise. And even if he does, the rest of the program is supposedly on track, regardless.
I'm assuming the "Alpha" is cheaper to build than the already cheap Zeta. I'm going to also assume the "Alpha" is going to see engineering that is an evolution of the larger VE based cars. But because these cars will also be able to sell in Europe & Asia because of their smaller size over the Zeta in addition to the Australia, the US, and the Middle East, we're talking about higher volumes. And the prospect that in less than 10 years, we'll be looking at downsizing once again, I think the "Alpha" is going to have a solid business case.
The ONLY alternative is GM risking losing the RWD market again. I don't for a minute think the current GM management team is going to risk that.
Based on all this, Alpha isn't anywhere near "in danger".
Here's the scoop distilled into it's simpleist form: If the thing can be done profitably, it will be approved. If not, then it won't. Cadillac is irrelevent in all this because Holden (and therefore Pontiac) are going to be the divisions to drive this thing. If you want to look into the future, this will also likely be the basis of the 6th gen F-body (or it's replacement) and other cars for other GM divisions here if fuel and greenhouse standards go up.
In short, an annual production of 55,000 Cadillacs (the CTS's production rate) isn't going to make or break the project when there's another 150,000 that can be sold through Pontiac (G6) another 60,000 that can be sold &/or exported via Holden to just the Asian-Pacific countries (less than 1/2 of VE's production), and perhaps another 50,000 plus that can be sold in Europe.
Cadillac's General Manager, Jim Taylor does (rightfully) question whether Cadillac should be part of the program. If Cadillac is to continue to become the standard of the world again (and becomes to GM what Jaguar is supposed to be to Ford and Mercedes is supposed to be to DaimlerChrysler... a brand that is known the world over as a top luxury division) a small sub-$30,000 car is probally NOT a welcome addition. In Europe, BMW isn't know as the luxury car brand as it is here in the US. BMW is sort of the mini-GM of Europe, offering a full line of cars. Jim Taylor isn't dead set against a Cadillac "Alpha". He simply isn't yet convinced. I'm not either.
On the other hand, Bob Lutz is finally on a roll now that cars with his fingerprints on it are coming out to good reviews and sales, GM has turned the corner financially, and GM can now do a new car faster (and cheaper) than the company's ability get the finished car into production. He has a way of cutting through convintional thinking that GM's board is now converts of. Example: Traditionally, it's been viewed as too expensive to bring German made opels here to sell due to the dollar exchange rates. He based the entire Saturn Astra argument on the fact the GM-NA wouldn't have to spend a single dime on developing a car to be sold here, and therefore more than made up for the difference in cost of assembly. And he was right. He's at his peak of influence at GM right now, and if he believes the "Alpha" should go forward, it will. If he belives Cadillac needs a version, Jim Taylor needs to stay up late to assemble a case proving otherwise. And even if he does, the rest of the program is supposedly on track, regardless.
I'm assuming the "Alpha" is cheaper to build than the already cheap Zeta. I'm going to also assume the "Alpha" is going to see engineering that is an evolution of the larger VE based cars. But because these cars will also be able to sell in Europe & Asia because of their smaller size over the Zeta in addition to the Australia, the US, and the Middle East, we're talking about higher volumes. And the prospect that in less than 10 years, we'll be looking at downsizing once again, I think the "Alpha" is going to have a solid business case.
The ONLY alternative is GM risking losing the RWD market again. I don't for a minute think the current GM management team is going to risk that.
Based on all this, Alpha isn't anywhere near "in danger".
Last edited by guionM; Mar 18, 2007 at 11:01 AM.
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The relevance of Cadillac and Alpha, is that Cadillac would have taken the lead in it's developement and would have had it's own Alpha products at least a year before anyone else.
If Cadillac bows out, does that mean the end of Alpha? Not necessarily. But it certainly will have an impact, especially since this architecture is still in the "vapor ware" stage.
Last edited by Z284ever; Mar 18, 2007 at 01:15 PM.
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Who said it should go after the 1 series or A3? How about a TRUE 3 series fighter? The new CTS is the size of a 5 or E class, to make people cross shop the two based on price? Stupid IMO. Up the price of the CTS to at least mid 30's, but this "Alpha" platform could spawn a TRUE 3 series fighter, priced JUST under 30k for both America and Europe. 4cyl option in Europe, 2.8 base engine here in America.
CTS gets optional, non-V Ultra V8 to go after the 550i, E550, A6 4.2 and GS460(soon im sure)
If Alpha has the possibility to be in line for Camaro replacement some years down the road, Im sure it will have to be about 180-190" in size, maybe being a little smaller then this new 5th gen. This would make it perfect size for a 3 series fighter.
CTS gets optional, non-V Ultra V8 to go after the 550i, E550, A6 4.2 and GS460(soon im sure)
If Alpha has the possibility to be in line for Camaro replacement some years down the road, Im sure it will have to be about 180-190" in size, maybe being a little smaller then this new 5th gen. This would make it perfect size for a 3 series fighter.
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Who said it should go after the 1 series or A3? How about a TRUE 3 series fighter? The new CTS is the size of a 5 or E class, to make people cross shop the two based on price? Stupid IMO. Up the price of the CTS to at least mid 30's, but this "Alpha" platform could spawn a TRUE 3 series fighter, priced JUST under 30k for both America and Europe. 4cyl option in Europe, 2.8 base engine here in America.
CTS gets optional, non-V Ultra V8 to go after the 550i, E550, A6 4.2 and GS460(soon im sure)
If Alpha has the possibility to be in line for Camaro replacement some years down the road, Im sure it will have to be about 180-190" in size, maybe being a little smaller then this new 5th gen. This would make it perfect size for a 3 series fighter.
CTS gets optional, non-V Ultra V8 to go after the 550i, E550, A6 4.2 and GS460(soon im sure)
If Alpha has the possibility to be in line for Camaro replacement some years down the road, Im sure it will have to be about 180-190" in size, maybe being a little smaller then this new 5th gen. This would make it perfect size for a 3 series fighter.
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From: Mack and Bewick
Cadillac's General Manager, Jim Taylor does (rightfully) question whether Cadillac should be part of the program. If Cadillac is to continue to become the standard of the world again (and becomes to GM what Jaguar is supposed to be to Ford and Mercedes is supposed to be to DaimlerChrysler... a brand that is known the world over as a top luxury division) a small sub-$30,000 car is probally NOT a welcome addition. In Europe, BMW isn't know as the luxury car brand as it is here in the US. BMW is sort of the mini-GM of Europe, offering a full line of cars. Jim Taylor isn't dead set against a Cadillac "Alpha". He simply isn't yet convinced. I'm not either.
One, the ever so amorphous info we've gotten on this platform doesen't lead me to believe it has to 1series sized. In fact it sounds like its going to have to be at least 3series sized, so I dont know where this sub 30k, or sub 3series slant is coming from.
Two, If Cadillac is to again become the standard of the world eventually they're going to have to give up being a blue light special. The upcoming CTS is now every bit as big and featured as a 5series but still cost lot less, as Doug says above, aimed at the 3series. Being that much of a bargin is incompatible with being a lusted after luxury brand. So all thats to say they need a 3series sized car in order to get their products inline with the rest of the luxury market.
Yep.
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