View Poll Results: Which styling direction should the 6th gen Camaro take?
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6th gen Camaro styling poll.
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 9,507
From: Okemos, MI
My problem with this section from wikipedia...
...is that while the 1964 Mustang was indeed "affordable, compact, highly styled car with a sporty or performance-oriented image", it did not have a big V8 (in fact many were sold with an I-6 and would be laughably slow by today's standards), and even the 289 hipo with 271 gross hp was only sold in relatively small numbers. None of them were even 14 second cars off the showroom floor.
By 1970 when the 'Cuda had the hemi (definitely a big, absurdly powerful V8) the 'Cuda was also a very big car. In fact, it was a B-body (think Road Runner, GTX) with a smaller passenger compartment (sound like any modern cars we know of?
). It was no longer a lightweight. With a 440, A/C and the period amenities, it was every bit as heavy as today's Camaro.
By 1971, the Mustang had also grown to about the size of today's Camaro, so that Ford could fit a 429 up front. With the 429, I'm pretty sure it came close to 4000 pounds.
Even the 1970 1/2 Camaro was much heavier than the '67. With a 402, A/C, auto, AM/FM, pw, etc., it probably came in at around 3900 pounds. A Z28 was around 3650 (it really depended on options back then as an A/C system added over 100 pounds).
So the net of all this is that the pony cars with the "big, absurdly powerful V8" were not the same cars as the compact ones.
If we'd had the internet 40 years ago, and Charlie were a Mopar fan, he'd probably be complaining everywhere about the '70 'Cuda as a big overweight car (actually, the magazines sort of mentioned that at the time). But he'd probably like the 340 Duster.
However, the reviews of the 70 1/2 were almost universally positive, in spite of the fact that it was up a couple of hundred pounds or so over the '67.
Now back to 2010 Camaro. If the 1970 Challenger was a pony car, the 2010 Camaro is a pony car. If the Challenger was not a pony car, but the 1965 Mustang is, then the 2010 Camaro is not a pony car. Back in the day, the automotive press considered a 4000 pound hemi Challenger a pony car just as it did a 3000 pound 140 horsepower 1965 Mustang.
So there's the brief history lesson. I could go on, but I'll spare us all.
At the end of all this, does it really matter?
...is that while the 1964 Mustang was indeed "affordable, compact, highly styled car with a sporty or performance-oriented image", it did not have a big V8 (in fact many were sold with an I-6 and would be laughably slow by today's standards), and even the 289 hipo with 271 gross hp was only sold in relatively small numbers. None of them were even 14 second cars off the showroom floor.
By 1970 when the 'Cuda had the hemi (definitely a big, absurdly powerful V8) the 'Cuda was also a very big car. In fact, it was a B-body (think Road Runner, GTX) with a smaller passenger compartment (sound like any modern cars we know of?
). It was no longer a lightweight. With a 440, A/C and the period amenities, it was every bit as heavy as today's Camaro.By 1971, the Mustang had also grown to about the size of today's Camaro, so that Ford could fit a 429 up front. With the 429, I'm pretty sure it came close to 4000 pounds.
Even the 1970 1/2 Camaro was much heavier than the '67. With a 402, A/C, auto, AM/FM, pw, etc., it probably came in at around 3900 pounds. A Z28 was around 3650 (it really depended on options back then as an A/C system added over 100 pounds).
So the net of all this is that the pony cars with the "big, absurdly powerful V8" were not the same cars as the compact ones.
If we'd had the internet 40 years ago, and Charlie were a Mopar fan, he'd probably be complaining everywhere about the '70 'Cuda as a big overweight car (actually, the magazines sort of mentioned that at the time). But he'd probably like the 340 Duster.
However, the reviews of the 70 1/2 were almost universally positive, in spite of the fact that it was up a couple of hundred pounds or so over the '67.
Now back to 2010 Camaro. If the 1970 Challenger was a pony car, the 2010 Camaro is a pony car. If the Challenger was not a pony car, but the 1965 Mustang is, then the 2010 Camaro is not a pony car. Back in the day, the automotive press considered a 4000 pound hemi Challenger a pony car just as it did a 3000 pound 140 horsepower 1965 Mustang.
So there's the brief history lesson. I could go on, but I'll spare us all.
At the end of all this, does it really matter?
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,165
From: Sterling Heights, MI
Yeah, if it were that cut-and-dry and ONLY about performance per dollar then it is hard to argue against the 4th Gen.
Then again, if it were only about performance per dollar then nobody would be buying new, and the 4th Gen might not even be the best choice. I'd go out and buy a ratty 3rd Gen, drop a monster motor in it and call it good.
Then again, if it were only about performance per dollar then nobody would be buying new, and the 4th Gen might not even be the best choice. I'd go out and buy a ratty 3rd Gen, drop a monster motor in it and call it good.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
maybe I should add ....."with an available V8", to my Pony Car definition....
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 243
Yeah you could get a 7-9k used 4th gen. There are plenty of ways to buy a fast car and if that's all you're looking for then a 5th gen is definitely not the most affordable route for you to take. But people who are buying these cars aren't looking for a rocket ship, they're looking for a complete car that goes like a rocket ship.
So for $35,500 you get a top of the line Camaro, highly styled, technologically advanced, rocket ship with a warranty and 100,000 miles of trouble free hooning.
Or you could spend 7-9k on a decade old LS1, with no warranty, and a fisher price interior (I don't care what anyone says about a 5th gens interior everyone has to admit it is a 1000x better than a 4th gens).
And just to let you know if you do go the 4th gen route no one is gonna roll down their window while driving down the road and yell "You're car is F****n' hot!" at you....
So for $35,500 you get a top of the line Camaro, highly styled, technologically advanced, rocket ship with a warranty and 100,000 miles of trouble free hooning.
Or you could spend 7-9k on a decade old LS1, with no warranty, and a fisher price interior (I don't care what anyone says about a 5th gens interior everyone has to admit it is a 1000x better than a 4th gens).
And just to let you know if you do go the 4th gen route no one is gonna roll down their window while driving down the road and yell "You're car is F****n' hot!" at you....
For my 6th gen...less bulbous, less chubby, less fat, less hefty, less barrel assed, and to top it all off an interior "1000x better" than the 5th gens please.
And i'll let the performance side take care of itself....ya know, from being less of a new age chevelle.
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,132
From: Santa Clara, CA
Who says I wasn't a Mopar fan in 1970? I was simply insane over the '70 'Cuda (especially in AAR and Hemi form). The only car on the planet which could compare was the 70 1/2 split bumper Z/28. I loved the Duster too, but cars like that were second tier to me. BTW, I still have my Hot Wheels Snake vs Mongoose set, where it was Don Prudhomme's 'Cuda vs Rod MCewen's Duster.
You were a different Charlie
Thread Starter
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,705
From: Oakland, California
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 368
From: Bay Area, CA
Yeah you could get a 7-9k used 4th gen. There are plenty of ways to buy a fast car and if that's all you're looking for then a 5th gen is definitely not the most affordable route for you to take. But people who are buying these cars aren't looking for a rocket ship, they're looking for a complete car that goes like a rocket ship.
Originally Posted by zq8colorado04
So for $35,500 you get a top of the line Camaro, highly styled, technologically advanced, rocket ship with a warranty and 100,000 miles of trouble free hooning.
I agree that for $35k that for a V8 sports car if I HAD to choose an American car that the Camaro is better than the 05-09 Mustang and the Challenger, but that's not the case now is it? And even if it were, then tell me why I should purchase a new Camaro over a used LS3 Z51 Vette?
Originally Posted by zq8colorado04
And just to let you know if you do go the 4th gen route no one is gonna roll down their window while driving down the road and yell "You're car is F****n' hot!" at you....
Again, lemme tell you what I'm looking for in a performance car. Performance!
Not for car shows, not for street racing, not for anyone else's enjoyment, but my own.
Last edited by Melee Penguin; Feb 19, 2010 at 04:36 PM.
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,132
From: Santa Clara, CA
I guess this thread shows that everyone wants something different, and many are very passionate about what they want.
Nothing new there, I guess.
A single Camaro will not satisfy every coupe buyer.
Nothing new there, I guess.
A single Camaro will not satisfy every coupe buyer.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Seems to me that there are those who want a big coupe and those who want a small coupe and those who really have no preference. That's simple enough. The problem comes when all those people want their car to be called Camaro.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,123
From: Melbourne, Australia
Which is the reason why GM should offer both big and small coupes (a-la BMW).
It would be good if the Coupe 60 took the place of the current 5G once the 6G moves onto Alpha.