I think the "Pony Car" debate has gotten worse than the Z/28 vs. SS wars or at least more pathetic.

Last time I checked Pony Car wasn't an EPA class or even on official term it's really just car talk or slang used to describe some Domestic vehicles all built to similar specs to compete with the original; the Mustang hence Pony. Other than to describe some very basic similarities of cars in this group; Domestic RWD, 2+2 coupe there isn't much else to define what they are. Size, weight, engines and price have all changed over the years but what keeps cars in this group Pony cars is either by default actually being a Mustang or competing directly with it from a Domestic brand.

That aside on the 6th gen Camaro front I think GM would be wise to evolve the 5th Gen styling like Ford did on the 2010 Mustang from the '05-09's. I think they can do a better job but the idea is that the 5th Gen is unmistakably a Camaro and its style resonates with people. I agree completely that the interior needs to be modernized and something like the Regal GS would be amazing. Even if it shared some things with the Alpha Caddy interior that would be fine in my book. I think the other issues like size, weight and handling will all fall on Alpha's basic layout and I think if what we are hearing is correct that will be a good thing for the purists.

 

Haven't been here in awhile, but looked at a new SS today. Have the resources to buy, but would like to see the 5th gen evolve before dropping the loot.

On the exterior/mechanical, better viability and a little less weight would be welcome, but I really like it overall and these 2 minor points are not show-stoppers for me. The car is striking IMHO and I really like and appreciate the styling cues from yesteryear...

OTOH, I won't consider this car until the interior is gutted. It may be love/hate for some but for me it is horrendous. For close to $40k, it is laughable and almost seems cartoonish.

Put a clean, functional, classy interior (preferably inspired by the C6) and I'll sign the papers today.

/r

Allen

 

The current trend of plastic grain pattern for most chevy interior hard panels that arent padded are not very becoming . The sheen is a tad too shiney which makes it look a bit cheap , the grain pattern is not all that nice and it scratches way way to easy . Some other OEM's use a coating from DuPont called velvasheild on their higher traffic hard panels that resists scratches and make them soft to the touch as well as a nice satin sheen . I work with alot of interior stuff

I was really put off by the Camaro interior materials too . For 1 because of its price and 2 , they hyped how good it was gonna be , and they really hyped . In reality , most(not all) of the materials in the car are the same stuff in my 05 Cobalt SS . Im a little critical there because it would not have taken much to make it look substantially better new , and a little more wear friendly down the road . Coat your plastic panels GM , and youll never hear a cheap hard plastic joke again

...back to the pony car wars

 

The new M3 has a 4.0 V8 and there have been a plethora of RX7 LS1 swaps, S2000s with LS1 swaps, EVOs with LS1 swaps, a few RX8 swaps.

I'm sure that the M3 V8 costs more to manufacture than the LS1, LS2, or LS3 and I'm not asking for an American V8 to be as technical, but why can't the car itself?

The LS1/2/3 are simple pushrod engines that make big power, that's great and awesome.

Why does the LS3 V8 brand new Camaro after an 8 year hiatus, with more HP at the wheels, bigger brakes, better suspension perform on par in a straight line with my stock 02 Z28?

I'm not at all trying to argue what exactly the Camaro should be, car gods know that I'm not exactly an exact purist, I'm just saying that even with heritage as a somewhat good point to start out at that it's time to make a performance car do what it's supposed to. Perform, and for $35k+ sake do better than an 8 year old previous model.

The Japanese and Germans DO have heritage with their cars, and while I HIGHLY disagree with what the GT-R / RX-8 is today, there are plenty examples that stick to the formula that perform better than just previous models.

Again, I don't want the Camaro to be a 135i, I just think that the 135i is more up my particular alley and for performance reasons only, not interior components or technicality. There aren't any other 300hp RWD 6spd 2+2 cars on the market that aren't ridiculously bloated in weight.

To get back to the original topic, the styling of the 5th Gen doesn't exactly put me off of purchasing the car, but I don't exactly thing that it's the best. I'll say that the 5th Gen styling is the most futuristic interpretations when compared to the 05+ Mustang or new Challenger. For the 6th Gen I'd definitely prefer something NEW though.

 

I spent some time in a LaCrosse today. GOSH! DAMN! What a nice interior. You almost have to remind yourself what car you're in. Those folks should do the 6th gen interior.

While we're talking about looks...

The Mustang's 5.0 motor is one good looking piece. I hope GM spends just alittle time tidying up the Gen V smallblock, to at least match the good looks of Mustang's motor.

 

I'd imagine it costs more than ALL THREE put together....

 

If you like big American coupes.... does it really matter to you if this car is called Camaro? If it were the Monte Carlo or Impala coupe, I'd think that would be more down your alley.

 

It seems like a trivial thing to gripe about , especially in a car like a Camaro . But damn , the difference between par for the course and a hole in one with interior materials is not that great cost wise . And Im not talking leather covered everything . Its a simple matter of grain selection on the plastic and proper application of coating in the right areas like the lower dash panels , console , door panels and rocker trims . Thats why all the dash tappers dont gripe about hard plastic in some cars , and complain about the seemingly same hard plastics in others .

I would love for the 6th gen to have an interior just 100% on par with a VW Golf

 

Probably not. But what else would you call the 5G?

Btw, I was disappointed more than most when Holden decided not to proceed with the Coupe 60 concept! That's definitely something up my alley.





I guess you now know I'm into my big coupes.

 

Agreed. And them some.

Are we really going back to comparing the Camaro SS to a BMW that costs twice as much? Seriously?

 

My problem with this section from wikipedia...

...is that while the 1964 Mustang was indeed "affordable, compact, highly styled car with a sporty or performance-oriented image", it did not have a big V8 (in fact many were sold with an I-6 and would be laughably slow by today's standards), and even the 289 hipo with 271 gross hp was only sold in relatively small numbers. None of them were even 14 second cars off the showroom floor.

By 1970 when the 'Cuda had the hemi (definitely a big, absurdly powerful V8) the 'Cuda was also a very big car. In fact, it was a B-body (think Road Runner, GTX) with a smaller passenger compartment (sound like any modern cars we know of? ). It was no longer a lightweight. With a 440, A/C and the period amenities, it was every bit as heavy as today's Camaro.

By 1971, the Mustang had also grown to about the size of today's Camaro, so that Ford could fit a 429 up front. With the 429, I'm pretty sure it came close to 4000 pounds.

Even the 1970 1/2 Camaro was much heavier than the '67. With a 402, A/C, auto, AM/FM, pw, etc., it probably came in at around 3900 pounds. A Z28 was around 3650 (it really depended on options back then as an A/C system added over 100 pounds).

So the net of all this is that the pony cars with the "big, absurdly powerful V8" were not the same cars as the compact ones.

If we'd had the internet 40 years ago, and Charlie were a Mopar fan, he'd probably be complaining everywhere about the '70 'Cuda as a big overweight car (actually, the magazines sort of mentioned that at the time). But he'd probably like the 340 Duster.

However, the reviews of the 70 1/2 were almost universally positive, in spite of the fact that it was up a couple of hundred pounds or so over the '67.

Now back to 2010 Camaro. If the 1970 Challenger was a pony car, the 2010 Camaro is a pony car. If the Challenger was not a pony car, but the 1965 Mustang is, then the 2010 Camaro is not a pony car. Back in the day, the automotive press considered a 4000 pound hemi Challenger a pony car just as it did a 3000 pound 140 horsepower 1965 Mustang.

So there's the brief history lesson. I could go on, but I'll spare us all.

At the end of all this, does it really matter?

 

I can see why you say that, but I don't like the LaCrosse. I don't like the sweeping of the instrument panel into the door.

At the SJ autoshow a month ago, I sat in most of the modern sedans. The one I came away really liking was the Fusion Sport. I remember saying that if that car had a driveshaft to the back (and none to the front!), I'd probably be down at my Ford dealer writing a check.

 

Yeah. My previous expose on the topic was started 8 hours prior to my actually hitting the 'submit' button. What you write here summarizes my thoughts nicely.

 

I'm not comparing the Camaro to a BMW.

I'm saying that Zee Germans can stuff a V8 into a performance oriented car that flippin' performs.

From what I'm looking at with the 5th Gen Camaro it seems that you can spend upwards of $35k for a V8 6 Spd Manual car with gobs of horsepower, better brakes, better suspension components and depending on the driver it MIGHT perform less than, equal to, or barely more than an 8 year old car of the same ilk.

I look at the Camaro from a heritage standpoint and think that it's GREAT that it's finally on the market and is finally selling next to the Mustang and Challenger.

I look at the Camaro from a performance/dollar standpoint in the sports car market and I'm honestly disappointed with the performance from an 8 year newer car compared to my 02 Z28.

Why purchase the SAME CAR for a gross mark-up IMO? It's a Chevy, It's a Camaro. An LS1 car stock for stock will run damn near the same times as an LS3 SS.

So, a Camaro for 7-9k or a Camaro for $35k+?

As American Manufacturers, GM, Ford, and Dodge didn't really have any stiff competition from across either pond in the 60s/70s.

It's 2010 now, performance cars are built and judged on a WORLD scale now. When the CTS, Z06, and ZR1 are tested in Nurburgring why are we suddenly not allowed to want the Camaro to perform at that tier? Because the Mustang has always just been vanilla, so GM/Chevy can just create a slightly better Vanilla Bean Camaro? It just seems so half-assed IMO.

I want a bad-*** Camaro, not just something that outperforms a Mustang.

If people still want to go down the BMW road then that's why I prefer the 135i. When you get down to "car guy" the 135i performs DAMN close to the M3 in straight line performance for HALF the price of an M3. Computer reflash and it's a hands down wash for the 135i. Throw some suspension mods on, bigger/wider wheels with good rubber and you'll be carving corners faster as well.

 

Yeah you could get a 7-9k used 4th gen. There are plenty of ways to buy a fast car and if that's all you're looking for then a 5th gen is definitely not the most affordable route for you to take. But people who are buying these cars aren't looking for a rocket ship, they're looking for a complete car that goes like a rocket ship.

So for $35,500 you get a top of the line Camaro, highly styled, technologically advanced, rocket ship with a warranty and 100,000 miles of trouble free hooning.

Or you could spend 7-9k on a decade old LS1, with no warranty, and a fisher price interior (I don't care what anyone says about a 5th gens interior everyone has to admit it is a 1000x better than a 4th gens).

And just to let you know if you do go the 4th gen route no one is gonna roll down their window while driving down the road and yell "You're car is F****n' hot!" at you....