5th gen news
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,428
what about dealer markup? is GM going to be placing limitations on this. we saw how much the 35ths were marked up.
i just hope this time around i will be able to afford one. wait, 4 years from now i'll still be in college and won't be able to buy a 30k base model camaro, lol. 33k for a ws6 in 4 years they'll hit the 40s. maybe i should just save up and hope we go into a depression
i just hope this time around i will be able to afford one. wait, 4 years from now i'll still be in college and won't be able to buy a 30k base model camaro, lol. 33k for a ws6 in 4 years they'll hit the 40s. maybe i should just save up and hope we go into a depression
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 858
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL
I think that SS WILL be the top model. However, I think Z/28 will be a special option package, ala ZO6.
Base- 3.9L HF V6 (NOT the High Value 3.9. This is a PERFORMANCE coupe.) Minimum 275hp. Use the damn 4.2L I6 if you have to, I dont give a damn how it crashes.)
SS - 6.0L GenIV (3v maybe? Whats the timeline look like on the 3v motors?)
Z/28 - ??? (Im hoping for a 6.0L version of the forthcoming ZO6 motor...Wouldnt be huge, like I think ZO6 is getting, but would be good and powerful, and limited production, so it doesnt peeve the 'Vette guys. Basically, the heads/cam/intake from the 6.4/7.0L or whatever ZO6 motor, but on the LS2. That would be cool.)
If that all happens, Ill sell my car, my girlfriend, my dog, my shoes, my spleen...Whatever it takes.
Base- 3.9L HF V6 (NOT the High Value 3.9. This is a PERFORMANCE coupe.) Minimum 275hp. Use the damn 4.2L I6 if you have to, I dont give a damn how it crashes.)
SS - 6.0L GenIV (3v maybe? Whats the timeline look like on the 3v motors?)
Z/28 - ??? (Im hoping for a 6.0L version of the forthcoming ZO6 motor...Wouldnt be huge, like I think ZO6 is getting, but would be good and powerful, and limited production, so it doesnt peeve the 'Vette guys. Basically, the heads/cam/intake from the 6.4/7.0L or whatever ZO6 motor, but on the LS2. That would be cool.)
If that all happens, Ill sell my car, my girlfriend, my dog, my shoes, my spleen...Whatever it takes.
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,306
From: Jersey Shore
Originally posted by number77
what about dealer markup? is GM going to be placing limitations on this. we saw how much the 35ths were marked up. i just hope this time around i will be able to afford one. wait, 4 years from now i'll still be in college and won't be able to buy a 30k base model camaro, lol. 33k for a ws6 in 4 years they'll hit the 40s. maybe i should just save up and hope we go into a depression
what about dealer markup? is GM going to be placing limitations on this. we saw how much the 35ths were marked up.
i just hope this time around i will be able to afford one. wait, 4 years from now i'll still be in college and won't be able to buy a 30k base model camaro, lol. 33k for a ws6 in 4 years they'll hit the 40s. maybe i should just save up and hope we go into a depression
And the 3.9 isnt a HF V6, its a HV. I dont see the V6 model getting that much more power or going to the 3.6 in efforts to try and keep costs down.
Id like to see a 5.3 in an RS model, not Z28 or SS with 330.
Give the 3rd model a detuned LS2 making 380hp.
Top model makes 410hp with a performance camaro.
I dont know if GM is going to offer a Camaro with a engine with more power then a Vette, but I hope that GM throws that out the window in hopes of claiming more ground in the sports coupe market.
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,597
From: oshawa,ontario,canada
Originally posted by guionM
Gee. Whining about an engine that may have "ONLY" 350 horsepower.
How spoiled is that!
Never mind that we don't know how much the new car weighs, or what type of axle ratio it'll have, or what it's torque curve is going to look like, or that it will still have perhaps 20 horses or more over the Mustang GT (based on current guesstimates).
350 is alot of horsepower. If it isn't, pony up and pay for the version that will have more.
That brings me to the prices. I wrote last year that because a large number pounced on loaded $33,000 WS6s and $30,000+ Camaro SSs instead of $25,000 Trans Ams and $23,000 Camaro Z28s, that's the direction future performance was going to go price wise.
The Dodge Charger super Hemi is going to be in the area of the $32,000 GTO and the $35,000 Mustang Cobra in price. I would expect top Camaros to be in that territory as well.
Cars that we consider quick today (or rather, last year), will continue to be quick and slightly quicker. But there will be cars waaaay quicker & faster in the very near future... And we'll be paying a small premium for them. This is no different than the 1960s when you had to pay a premium for performance cars. Sure, a base Chevelle SS, GTO, or Road Runner was affordable to the upper edge of the average buyer of the day, but to get an LS6 Chevy, or a Ram Air IV, or a Hemi in these cars, you were talking about jacking up the price of the car 1/4 to 1/3 of the base price. Things won't be as extreme this time around.
In the 1980s, Monte Carlo SSs cost a healthy premium over fully equpted MCs with nearly the same 305 V8. Turbo TAs cost serious bucks over regular TAs. Grand Nationals cost almost as much as Corvettes, with the GNX taking it over the edge. Typhoons & Cyclones cost a couple of suitcases stuffed with $100s. Supercharged Thunderbirds cost a ton of money over other birds, and the Impala SS of the mid 90s cost up to $26,000 when loaded Caprices with the exact same engine and powertrain cost about $22K.
Base Z28s at $23,000 were a steal (or even underpriced).
Yet, younger guys bought $25,000+ V6 RSs for the ground effects, monsoon, and t-tops, and the rest of the buyers seemed to go for fully loaded SSs running over $30,000. Mustang GTs sold like hotcakes to the broad middle (more men brought GTs than bought all F-bodies combined!).
I'd suspect GM took all this info when laying plans for the F-body replacement.
Gee. Whining about an engine that may have "ONLY" 350 horsepower.
How spoiled is that!
Never mind that we don't know how much the new car weighs, or what type of axle ratio it'll have, or what it's torque curve is going to look like, or that it will still have perhaps 20 horses or more over the Mustang GT (based on current guesstimates).
350 is alot of horsepower. If it isn't, pony up and pay for the version that will have more.
That brings me to the prices. I wrote last year that because a large number pounced on loaded $33,000 WS6s and $30,000+ Camaro SSs instead of $25,000 Trans Ams and $23,000 Camaro Z28s, that's the direction future performance was going to go price wise.
The Dodge Charger super Hemi is going to be in the area of the $32,000 GTO and the $35,000 Mustang Cobra in price. I would expect top Camaros to be in that territory as well.
Cars that we consider quick today (or rather, last year), will continue to be quick and slightly quicker. But there will be cars waaaay quicker & faster in the very near future... And we'll be paying a small premium for them. This is no different than the 1960s when you had to pay a premium for performance cars. Sure, a base Chevelle SS, GTO, or Road Runner was affordable to the upper edge of the average buyer of the day, but to get an LS6 Chevy, or a Ram Air IV, or a Hemi in these cars, you were talking about jacking up the price of the car 1/4 to 1/3 of the base price. Things won't be as extreme this time around.
In the 1980s, Monte Carlo SSs cost a healthy premium over fully equpted MCs with nearly the same 305 V8. Turbo TAs cost serious bucks over regular TAs. Grand Nationals cost almost as much as Corvettes, with the GNX taking it over the edge. Typhoons & Cyclones cost a couple of suitcases stuffed with $100s. Supercharged Thunderbirds cost a ton of money over other birds, and the Impala SS of the mid 90s cost up to $26,000 when loaded Caprices with the exact same engine and powertrain cost about $22K.
Base Z28s at $23,000 were a steal (or even underpriced).
Yet, younger guys bought $25,000+ V6 RSs for the ground effects, monsoon, and t-tops, and the rest of the buyers seemed to go for fully loaded SSs running over $30,000. Mustang GTs sold like hotcakes to the broad middle (more men brought GTs than bought all F-bodies combined!).
I'd suspect GM took all this info when laying plans for the F-body replacement.
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,121
From: Houston
I like everything I’m hearing even though most of the info has been common knowledge around here for a while. I’m loving the Z28 news. I wonder if that’s really do to our bitching around here? That makes me feel really good if it is being one of the guys who constantly want the Z28 to come back as the Camaro’s Z06.
I like the V6 base model using the 3.9L 60 degree motor. Good choice, but the SS losing cubic inches? I have mixed feelings about that. I like the idea of three totally different engines. That's cool if it’s true because once again GM was listening to us talk about the want of a mid level motor. But I was hoping for a 5.7L LS* in the SS and the Z28 using a 6.0L LS* or something to that effect. I don’t think motor size should be getting smaller.
I’ll probably be looking at the SS model because I want a convertible. The Z28 better only come in hard top form. So I’m hoping the SS motor will have enough cubic inches to play with. Mine won’t stay stock for long. Warranty what warranty?
Even if it does go with the 5.3L it must make at least 350 rated hp. Either way I’m super excited now!
I like the V6 base model using the 3.9L 60 degree motor. Good choice, but the SS losing cubic inches? I have mixed feelings about that. I like the idea of three totally different engines. That's cool if it’s true because once again GM was listening to us talk about the want of a mid level motor. But I was hoping for a 5.7L LS* in the SS and the Z28 using a 6.0L LS* or something to that effect. I don’t think motor size should be getting smaller.
I’ll probably be looking at the SS model because I want a convertible. The Z28 better only come in hard top form. So I’m hoping the SS motor will have enough cubic inches to play with. Mine won’t stay stock for long. Warranty what warranty?
Even if it does go with the 5.3L it must make at least 350 rated hp. Either way I’m super excited now!
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,306
From: Jersey Shore
Originally posted by 97z28/m6
my problem with that is my first new car that i buy i don't want all the power options standered(sp) i want roll-up windows etc. so i hope chevy sells the Z/28 as a stripper model as well.
my problem with that is my first new car that i buy i don't want all the power options standered(sp) i want roll-up windows etc. so i hope chevy sells the Z/28 as a stripper model as well.
And stars, the 5.7 is gone for ever. There wont be anymore 5.7 engines. Id like to see TTops as a option, and a vert on all cars.
Remember, this is an everyday car, not a supercar. Have things that will make people want to drive it every day, not on the weekends on there way to the track.
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,121
From: Houston
Originally posted by Big Als Z
And stars, the 5.7 is gone for ever. There wont be anymore 5.7 engines.
And stars, the 5.7 is gone for ever. There wont be anymore 5.7 engines.
Is the 346 cubic inch LS dead too?
Originally posted by Big Als Z
Id like to see TTops as a option, and a vert on all cars.
Remember, this is an everyday car, not a supercar.
Id like to see TTops as a option, and a vert on all cars.
Remember, this is an everyday car, not a supercar.
Originally posted by Big Als Z
Have things that will make people want to drive it every day, not on the weekends on there way to the track.
Have things that will make people want to drive it every day, not on the weekends on there way to the track.
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 293
From: Hou,TX
Originally posted by MissedShift
I think that SS WILL be the top model. However, I think Z/28 will be a special option package, ala ZO6.
Base- 3.9L HF V6 (NOT the High Value 3.9. This is a PERFORMANCE coupe.) Minimum 275hp. Use the damn 4.2L I6 if you have to, I dont give a damn how it crashes.)
SS - 6.0L GenIV (3v maybe? Whats the timeline look like on the 3v motors?)
Z/28 - ??? (Im hoping for a 6.0L version of the forthcoming ZO6 motor...Wouldnt be huge, like I think ZO6 is getting, but would be good and powerful, and limited production, so it doesnt peeve the 'Vette guys. Basically, the heads/cam/intake from the 6.4/7.0L or whatever ZO6 motor, but on the LS2. That would be cool.)
If that all happens, Ill sell my car, my girlfriend, my dog, my shoes, my spleen...Whatever it takes.
I think that SS WILL be the top model. However, I think Z/28 will be a special option package, ala ZO6.
Base- 3.9L HF V6 (NOT the High Value 3.9. This is a PERFORMANCE coupe.) Minimum 275hp. Use the damn 4.2L I6 if you have to, I dont give a damn how it crashes.)
SS - 6.0L GenIV (3v maybe? Whats the timeline look like on the 3v motors?)
Z/28 - ??? (Im hoping for a 6.0L version of the forthcoming ZO6 motor...Wouldnt be huge, like I think ZO6 is getting, but would be good and powerful, and limited production, so it doesnt peeve the 'Vette guys. Basically, the heads/cam/intake from the 6.4/7.0L or whatever ZO6 motor, but on the LS2. That would be cool.)
If that all happens, Ill sell my car, my girlfriend, my dog, my shoes, my spleen...Whatever it takes.
Yeah that can't happen. The base vette with LS2 is the ceiling for any Camaro. Unless you want to buy a $45K Z/28.
Pretty sure the 3V horizontal pushrod idea is dead.
Originally posted by stars1010
I was talking about the 346 LS version not the true 350 5.7L.
Is the 346 cubic inch LS dead too?
I was talking about the 346 LS version not the true 350 5.7L.
Is the 346 cubic inch LS dead too?
Yup. 346 LSx is gone. It's 4.8/5.3/6.0
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,698
From: USA
Article is largly a rehash of fluff posted everywhere....
The car is at the stage suppliers are getting it, so more people now know what it looks like.
Also here are some bits to think about...
5.3- The new 5.3L in the Camaro is essentially the same as the LS4 planned for the W-bodies. Expect at least 320 and possibly 350HP (much more than the W-bodies because it doesn't need TQ management..also 5.3L is awefully close to 327
T-tops- People in charhe of the new car want T-tops...engineering says it can't be done....last I heard the engineers were told find a way.
Front Clip- There were two front clip designed around the time of the clinic (one retro, one sleek)...serious consideration was given to making both. Last I heard that idea had been dropped.
Z/28- The new Z28 will be an all out *** kicker designed to return to it's racing roots...and maybe lay new ones. I am really feeling we will see a 400 HP LS2 and optional AWD. GM wants a car that captures the hearts of old Camaro owners, yet will also be an aspirational car for Gen Y enthusiasts who look to cars such as the WRX STI and Evo VIII. The Z/28 was originally a racer, and maybe adding a bit of Rally racing to that will help it's image.
Options- If I was a betting man I would expect Onstar, XM, Remote Start, HUD, and TAPShift at least. Remember all these options will already be engineered in for premium Zeta cars...so it costs GM almost nothing to include them in the Camaro.
The Cars Name- Look at the concepts we are seeing...do you think GM could get away with releasing a car that looks like that and not calling it Camaro?
Chasing Mustang- I really doubt we will see more than a 400 HP Camaro. Ford seems intent on chasing Corvette, in to higher HP areas with the Mustang...it would make no sense for GM to follow with the Camaro...
The car is at the stage suppliers are getting it, so more people now know what it looks like.
Also here are some bits to think about...
5.3- The new 5.3L in the Camaro is essentially the same as the LS4 planned for the W-bodies. Expect at least 320 and possibly 350HP (much more than the W-bodies because it doesn't need TQ management..also 5.3L is awefully close to 327
T-tops- People in charhe of the new car want T-tops...engineering says it can't be done....last I heard the engineers were told find a way.
Front Clip- There were two front clip designed around the time of the clinic (one retro, one sleek)...serious consideration was given to making both. Last I heard that idea had been dropped.
Z/28- The new Z28 will be an all out *** kicker designed to return to it's racing roots...and maybe lay new ones. I am really feeling we will see a 400 HP LS2 and optional AWD. GM wants a car that captures the hearts of old Camaro owners, yet will also be an aspirational car for Gen Y enthusiasts who look to cars such as the WRX STI and Evo VIII. The Z/28 was originally a racer, and maybe adding a bit of Rally racing to that will help it's image.
Options- If I was a betting man I would expect Onstar, XM, Remote Start, HUD, and TAPShift at least. Remember all these options will already be engineered in for premium Zeta cars...so it costs GM almost nothing to include them in the Camaro.
The Cars Name- Look at the concepts we are seeing...do you think GM could get away with releasing a car that looks like that and not calling it Camaro?
Chasing Mustang- I really doubt we will see more than a 400 HP Camaro. Ford seems intent on chasing Corvette, in to higher HP areas with the Mustang...it would make no sense for GM to follow with the Camaro...
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,647
From: At car shows and cruise nights!
Big Al, you always seem to be pretty knowledgable when it comes to this kind of stuff but your Z28 and SS history is a little off, which is why it is returning to its rightful place again. A limited content top all-out Camaro Z28 is completely true to it's history and a high production SS with a few engine choices and all the options is completely true to it's history also. Remember that there are no more big blocks today.
The Z28 was the car that cost more, featured a special high performance engine, got all the best performance equiptment, (some features that couldn't be had on any other models) and was way underrated in power. It was the limited content racecar basically. It had closer to 400HP than 290HP. It was the high HP engine and the SS had the high TQ engine. The Z28 was the best overall car, it was fast, it handled great for its time, and braked good. It also had it's own looks. The SS on the other side, was a straightline car. Then in 70 the Z28 got an LT1 right from the Corvette and still had it's advantages over the other models. It then stayed with the car through all the Gens which SS didn't. Keep in mind the IROC-Z28 was an upgraded Z28, but still a Z28. As mentioned, the SS originally was a pretty slow 350 until the big blocks were needed. The Z28 being the Z06-type Camaro is right where it deserves to be, and we did alot of convincing and proving to get it there. The best and most legendary Camaros have all been Z28's and it looks like it will keep going on and maybe even get better in some ways.
The Z28 was the car that cost more, featured a special high performance engine, got all the best performance equiptment, (some features that couldn't be had on any other models) and was way underrated in power. It was the limited content racecar basically. It had closer to 400HP than 290HP. It was the high HP engine and the SS had the high TQ engine. The Z28 was the best overall car, it was fast, it handled great for its time, and braked good. It also had it's own looks. The SS on the other side, was a straightline car. Then in 70 the Z28 got an LT1 right from the Corvette and still had it's advantages over the other models. It then stayed with the car through all the Gens which SS didn't. Keep in mind the IROC-Z28 was an upgraded Z28, but still a Z28. As mentioned, the SS originally was a pretty slow 350 until the big blocks were needed. The Z28 being the Z06-type Camaro is right where it deserves to be, and we did alot of convincing and proving to get it there. The best and most legendary Camaros have all been Z28's and it looks like it will keep going on and maybe even get better in some ways.
Last edited by IZ28; Mar 30, 2004 at 12:44 AM.
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2,472
From: South Bend, Indiana
Originally posted by formula79
Chasing Mustang- I really doubt we will see more than a 400 HP Camaro. Ford seems intent on chasing Corvette, in to higher HP areas with the Mustang...it would make no sense for GM to follow with the Camaro... [/B]
Chasing Mustang- I really doubt we will see more than a 400 HP Camaro. Ford seems intent on chasing Corvette, in to higher HP areas with the Mustang...it would make no sense for GM to follow with the Camaro... [/B]
Its only the Cobras that are in the same league as the Corvettes (and the Roush stage III). Why wouldn't it make sense to bring the top of the line Camaro into that territory?
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,698
From: USA
Originally posted by Meccadeth
Why not?
Its only the Cobras that are in the same league as the Corvettes (and the Roush stage III). Why wouldn't it make sense to bring the top of the line Camaro into that territory?
Why not?
Its only the Cobras that are in the same league as the Corvettes (and the Roush stage III). Why wouldn't it make sense to bring the top of the line Camaro into that territory?
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 691
From: Miami, FL
im sure if GM sees that we don't want to own a camaro that trails behind a mustang, it'll make sure that, stock for stock, the camaro makes horse meat out of the mustang for dinner
atleast i hope so, lol. i wouldn't want to own an '07-08 z28/ss that can't out run the quickest cobra out there.
and btw, i thought chevy was doing it's darnest to make every car with the SS emblem on it the best model out of that type of car (silverado, cobalt, camaro, impala, monte carlo, etc)... thats why i always thought they were going to build the Camaro SS to be the top of the line camaro of that year... guess i might be wrong
atleast i hope so, lol. i wouldn't want to own an '07-08 z28/ss that can't out run the quickest cobra out there.
and btw, i thought chevy was doing it's darnest to make every car with the SS emblem on it the best model out of that type of car (silverado, cobalt, camaro, impala, monte carlo, etc)... thats why i always thought they were going to build the Camaro SS to be the top of the line camaro of that year... guess i might be wrong