2015 Chevy performance line-up. Let's have some fun!
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BMW, for all their 'weight savings', make a 500hp capable chassis and call it the M5. Holden also makes a 500hp capable chassis and it is the Commodore. In top trim, both weigh about 4050lb. The M5 is also 2" narrower and 4" shorter than the G8 GXP. What weight savings?? 
Do I think it is possible? If engineers are weight conscious then yes. Very yes. It means a 3600lb 300hp I4/320hp V6 and a 3700lb 400hp V6/V8.
And those would be the same for both the Sedan AND Camaro. No supercharged V8. No factory 11 second rocket.
... And we know with Coyote and Roadrunner on the way that the Camaro will need more than 400hp to be equal -it'll need to be in the 450hp-500hp range. And then the 6th gen will only shed 100lb from the 5th gen and we'll still be complaining about how heavy it is.
And we'll have an alpha that's the same size and weight as the 1st gen CTS and it will totally miss the point of 'fighting the 3 series'.
Alpha has enough problems on its own. It doesn't need the Camaro's problems too.
AND BMW like character? Having driven the 5 series and the Commodore.... I think its pretty freaking BMW like. I wish Holden had made the Torana concept of a few years back. I feel like Holden has the ball on hitting BMW dynamics and could have made alpha 3 years ago.
Do I think it is possible? If engineers are weight conscious then yes. Very yes. It means a 3600lb 300hp I4/320hp V6 and a 3700lb 400hp V6/V8.
And those would be the same for both the Sedan AND Camaro. No supercharged V8. No factory 11 second rocket.
... And we know with Coyote and Roadrunner on the way that the Camaro will need more than 400hp to be equal -it'll need to be in the 450hp-500hp range. And then the 6th gen will only shed 100lb from the 5th gen and we'll still be complaining about how heavy it is.
And we'll have an alpha that's the same size and weight as the 1st gen CTS and it will totally miss the point of 'fighting the 3 series'.
Alpha has enough problems on its own. It doesn't need the Camaro's problems too.
AND BMW like character? Having driven the 5 series and the Commodore.... I think its pretty freaking BMW like. I wish Holden had made the Torana concept of a few years back. I feel like Holden has the ball on hitting BMW dynamics and could have made alpha 3 years ago.
Last edited by Geoff Chadwick; Oct 6, 2009 at 08:40 PM.
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Geoff
You won't get any arguments from me on the Torana. My family has two cars (both happen to be Atoyots... as my wife works there) and I could do with a fun weekender... so size isn't important.
But Torana was canned here because it was too small to sell in big volumes. When Holden decided to bring out the first Commodore, which was somewhere between Torana and Kingswood in external dimensions, Holden saw sales plummet. Holden relinquished market leadership to Ford as Falcon remained essentially a large car powered by large engines. The sales slide was arrested somewhat but Holden didn't fully recover until the new generation, larger sized Commodore arrived, to take back sales supremacy from Falcon.
Cutting a long story short, is there room for a Chev 3-series fighter and Camaro? Is it viable and sustainable for GM? I guess when we dream (like we are) we don't care about left brain stuff like that, do we?
You won't get any arguments from me on the Torana. My family has two cars (both happen to be Atoyots... as my wife works there) and I could do with a fun weekender... so size isn't important.
But Torana was canned here because it was too small to sell in big volumes. When Holden decided to bring out the first Commodore, which was somewhere between Torana and Kingswood in external dimensions, Holden saw sales plummet. Holden relinquished market leadership to Ford as Falcon remained essentially a large car powered by large engines. The sales slide was arrested somewhat but Holden didn't fully recover until the new generation, larger sized Commodore arrived, to take back sales supremacy from Falcon.
Cutting a long story short, is there room for a Chev 3-series fighter and Camaro? Is it viable and sustainable for GM? I guess when we dream (like we are) we don't care about left brain stuff like that, do we?
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Getting it to fit is easy. I don't know how long GM designs cars for these days (300k?) but that longevity adds weight and cost.
Alpha needs to be designed as a Chevrolet platform supporting a Sedan and Coupe. End of Story. Not up for debate. They cannot make a successful strategy by designing a Cadillac platform and selling it at cost or a loss to make a Chevrolet version or two.
The Current V6 weight 3760lb and starts at $23k. Alpha can not make Camaro more expensive.
Can Chevrolet make a 3460lb Camaro V6 for $23k?
Can Chevrolet make a 3500lb RWD V6 Sedan for $24k?
Pricetag is fixed. Weight is determined by cost. The market will bear a heavier Camaro, but not a more expensive one.
And does anyone realize if both of those alphas were in a Chevy dealer - what it would mean from an image standpoint? You would have 4 300hp vehicles that all got 30mpg on highway or better.
$23k - 300hp RWD 3500lb Camaro
$24k - 300hp RWD 3600lb '3 series fighter'
$25k - 300hp FWD 3300lb Cruze SS
$26k - 300hp FWD 3400lb Orlando SS
You want to talk performance lineup - there it is.
And on the Torana concept from a few years back? Yes. Very yes. Very very yes.
Alpha needs to be designed as a Chevrolet platform supporting a Sedan and Coupe. End of Story. Not up for debate. They cannot make a successful strategy by designing a Cadillac platform and selling it at cost or a loss to make a Chevrolet version or two.
The Current V6 weight 3760lb and starts at $23k. Alpha can not make Camaro more expensive.
Can Chevrolet make a 3460lb Camaro V6 for $23k?
Can Chevrolet make a 3500lb RWD V6 Sedan for $24k?
Pricetag is fixed. Weight is determined by cost. The market will bear a heavier Camaro, but not a more expensive one.
And does anyone realize if both of those alphas were in a Chevy dealer - what it would mean from an image standpoint? You would have 4 300hp vehicles that all got 30mpg on highway or better.
$23k - 300hp RWD 3500lb Camaro
$24k - 300hp RWD 3600lb '3 series fighter'
$25k - 300hp FWD 3300lb Cruze SS
$26k - 300hp FWD 3400lb Orlando SS
You want to talk performance lineup - there it is.
And on the Torana concept from a few years back? Yes. Very yes. Very very yes.
With all that said, it seems that both Camaro and Mustang are already sliding upscale price-wise. Bottom line is, I don't see pricing as a big issue with Alpha. Plus, it will have economies of scale that the current car can only dream of.
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It will be smaller and lighter than a 1st gen CTS.
It will be smaller and lighter than the current Camaro.
The program was altered abit when Cadillac insisted on a V6. But I also think that doing that probably allowed the architecture to flex and interface more easily with different powertrain combos than it would have originally. Did that make it gain mass? I don't know for sure, but I assume yes.
Alpha won't be perfect but it will be closer to what many of us want than what we have now.
Last edited by Z284ever; Oct 6, 2009 at 11:29 PM.
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Originally Posted by Z284ever
"value" price as a loss leader and not substantially alter the car's business plan - since so few are sold at that price point.
And the idea of a loss leader just makes my skin crawl.
It will be smaller and lighter than a 1st gen CTS.
It will be smaller and lighter than the current Camaro.
It will be smaller and lighter than the current Camaro.
And with economies of scale, it should be able to hit those low price targets easier than Zeta did which is the one saving grace. Zeta should have been more of a global platform. Alpha was rumored to go global too. What'll actually happen? We will have to wait and see.
Originally Posted by SSBaby
Cutting a long story short, is there room for a Chev 3-series fighter and Camaro
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Yes, very few base model Camaros are getting sold. But the model is still new. What killed the 4th gen? A million v6 mustangs. Sure, things are great *now* but that may not always be the case. If you say "well the price on the 6th gen could go up a grand" to the beancounters now, by the time its out you'll have one that's $3k more.
And the idea of a loss leader just makes my skin crawl.
And the idea of a loss leader just makes my skin crawl.
It won't be perfect. We cant even agree on what perfect is - but what will it really be? What I've heard flying around in alpha at this point is still too much noise and too little harmony. I'm not convinced everything is peachy just yet. I'm not convinced it will be really all that lightweight or really all that small - knowing it'll need to support a 450hp V8.
I'm not sure what power targets are being considered for this car, but keep in mind the current Camaro can support over 600 hp - even in convertible form.
And with economies of scale, it should be able to hit those low price targets easier than Zeta did which is the one saving grace. Zeta should have been more of a global platform. Alpha was rumored to go global too. What'll actually happen? We will have to wait and see.
Not only that, but alpha would also get slathered in toys and become a cadillac model. Is there room for both the Chevy and Camaro? I would argue yes. The Cruze and Malibu aren't about to win back Pontiac owners, are they?
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Perfect means different things to different people. Closer to perfection from a fun driving dynamics point of view means lighter and smaller. And compared to what we have - that it will be. The program is pretty well focused right now and GM is working "vigorously" (in Nesbitt's words) to get this car out.
So then a future "Camaro Alpha" with a V8 would presumably be a variant platform (Alpha-prime).
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Since you're quoting Nesbitt, I believe the context here is the Cadillac ATS, not a Camaro. And since the ATS is supposed to be fun with I4s and V6s and compete with the 1/3, it stands to reason that it will be smaller and lighter than today's Camaro. But if said car is designed to take a 444hp V8, while passing all OEM standards (not "it can be squeezed in there"), it's way over designed.
So then a future "Camaro Alpha" with a V8 would presumably be a variant platform (Alpha-prime).
So then a future "Camaro Alpha" with a V8 would presumably be a variant platform (Alpha-prime).
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Still I'd imagine that its going to be a 5-door hatch. I still think Chevy needs an Aveo sized/priced 3-door "hot hatch" to keep up with the euros. 
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What Aveo SS? (I'm hoping there isn't an Aveo to be discussed in 2015, or any other Korean-roots predecessor).
Let's talk about the Camaro RS36. It's got a turbo 3.6 good for 340hp and gets EPA 23/31. It comes in solid/non-metallic red, white, or blue, with a limited edition in metallic black with red-line tires and red bowties. It slots in between the entry non-turbo gas 3.6. Only one V8 option exists as the "SS" model, and that's the current top SS with fuel delivery improvements for better mileage.
Or the Malibu D. This is a 2.4L 240hp Diesel that gets EPA 31/41. It is also available in a DH version that incorporates direct drive electric motors and rechargable battery technology borrowed from the Volt that can give it a boost to 300hp, and will achieve EPA 33/47. Both are aimed downmarket from BMW's 530d, providing impressive performance while maintaining Chevrolet's value-strategy pricing.
The new "small car" performance version will have a 1.4L surpercharged turbo (yes, both) 4-cylinder with DSG transmission. It will be good for somewhere around 170-180hp and EPA 24/36.
Let's talk about the Camaro RS36. It's got a turbo 3.6 good for 340hp and gets EPA 23/31. It comes in solid/non-metallic red, white, or blue, with a limited edition in metallic black with red-line tires and red bowties. It slots in between the entry non-turbo gas 3.6. Only one V8 option exists as the "SS" model, and that's the current top SS with fuel delivery improvements for better mileage.
Or the Malibu D. This is a 2.4L 240hp Diesel that gets EPA 31/41. It is also available in a DH version that incorporates direct drive electric motors and rechargable battery technology borrowed from the Volt that can give it a boost to 300hp, and will achieve EPA 33/47. Both are aimed downmarket from BMW's 530d, providing impressive performance while maintaining Chevrolet's value-strategy pricing.
The new "small car" performance version will have a 1.4L surpercharged turbo (yes, both) 4-cylinder with DSG transmission. It will be good for somewhere around 170-180hp and EPA 24/36.
