2013 ponycar shootout! Alpha Camaro vs 'Huntsman' Mustang...
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 10,285
From: Albany, NY
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
First, unless Camaro sells a gazillion models in 2010, 11, & 12, you aren't going to see an "Alpha" Camaro.
Reason? Camaro sales simply aren't going to be high enough to require an immediate program to shrink after only 3 years. ESPECIALLY V8 Camaros.
It all goes back to making a very desirable V6 model that doesn't seem like an afterthought. The next Camaro will by all indications have a very good midlevel V6 model that as far as equipment and style should be on the level of the recently departed G35. If it had the DI V6, then it should have impressive performance to go along with the very good fuel economy.
I can attest that developing the Zeta Camaro was relatively dirt cheap as far as new cars go. I can also go along with Alpha becoming the next gen Camaro. But I'd see an Alpha Camaro not being a necessity until mid decade, which would give the 5th gen a perfectly reasonable and expected 4-5 year lifespan with 1 MCE.
But one thing to keep in mind:
If Camaro goes to the Alpha chassis, you're going to see horsepower drop and very likely see the end of the V8... at least a V8 as powerful as the LS3... in regular, guy on the street Camaros.
Reason? Camaro sales simply aren't going to be high enough to require an immediate program to shrink after only 3 years. ESPECIALLY V8 Camaros.
It all goes back to making a very desirable V6 model that doesn't seem like an afterthought. The next Camaro will by all indications have a very good midlevel V6 model that as far as equipment and style should be on the level of the recently departed G35. If it had the DI V6, then it should have impressive performance to go along with the very good fuel economy.
I can attest that developing the Zeta Camaro was relatively dirt cheap as far as new cars go. I can also go along with Alpha becoming the next gen Camaro. But I'd see an Alpha Camaro not being a necessity until mid decade, which would give the 5th gen a perfectly reasonable and expected 4-5 year lifespan with 1 MCE.
But one thing to keep in mind:
If Camaro goes to the Alpha chassis, you're going to see horsepower drop and very likely see the end of the V8... at least a V8 as powerful as the LS3... in regular, guy on the street Camaros.
Afew points.
1) Camaro isn't going to get the several hundred thousand Zeta siblings to share cost and a plant with.
2) Even if EVERY Camaro came with a V6, I'd bet the current (as in 5th gen), package will be CAFE negative by 2011.
3) I wouldn't bet on the 5th gen even getting a MCE.
4) Alpha will be GM's high volume RWD architecture. The more RWD programs which you can merge with it, the better.
5) You don't need 500+ hp motors when your "ponycars" don't weigh two tons.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,597
From: oshawa,ontario,canada
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 681
I doubt that they will all be developed concurrently. If the first one comes out around MY2012, then Camaro would probably come on line around MY2013-2015. Therefore, I think you and Guy are talking about the same timeframe.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,958
From: Kansas City, MO
The LNF 2.0 turbo trumps the 3800 by a wide margin with 260 lb ft. from 2500 rpm to 5300 rpm.
The 3.8 became available in some markets in 1995 and became standard in 1996. That's what I was referring to by the 1967-1995. Meaning that the 3.8 was more powerful.
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,801
From: South Bend , IN
I can add more power later .
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,132
From: Santa Clara, CA
Charlie, when you say 2013, I'm assuming you mean calendar, which would imply a four year run on the Zeta Camaro, and the Alpha would be a '14 model. Or do you really mean all new Mustangs and Camaros in calendar 2012?
That does seem like an awfully short run, and CAFE really doesn't start getting hard until '14 or '15, at which point there will have been a few 4.5% jumps.
That does seem like an awfully short run, and CAFE really doesn't start getting hard until '14 or '15, at which point there will have been a few 4.5% jumps.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 983
From: Motor City
The ecotecs are fairly large 4 bangers and not especially high revving compared to sub 2.0 liter imports. The 3800 series II makes 225 lb ft. at 4000 RPM. The 2.4 only has 156 lb. ft, but has 90% of it available at 2400 RPM. With DI and some tweaks, it would be enough for a smaller, lighter base care.
The LNF 2.0 turbo trumps the 3800 by a wide margin with 260 lb ft. from 2500 rpm to 5300 rpm.
The 3.8 became available in some markets in 1995 and became standard in 1996. That's what I was referring to by the 1967-1995. Meaning that the 3.8 was more powerful.
The LNF 2.0 turbo trumps the 3800 by a wide margin with 260 lb ft. from 2500 rpm to 5300 rpm.
The 3.8 became available in some markets in 1995 and became standard in 1996. That's what I was referring to by the 1967-1995. Meaning that the 3.8 was more powerful.
My 87 Grand National makes lotsa tq at alot lower than 4k rpms
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,022
From: Newhall, CA USA
So, put me down as a fan of the LNF.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
It's more based on the reports that the MCE'd 2010 Mustang will only last 2-3 years, before the next gen car comes out and some rumblings that the 5th gen will get a short run due to CAFE concerns.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,958
From: Kansas City, MO
The 3.8 was not available in the Camaro until 1995. That was also the year that the Series II "3800" debuted with 205 horsepower. Prior to that, no naturally aspirated 3.8 had more horsepower than the current 2.4.
As you know, the 3.8 turbo was never in Camaro, but did do one year of duty in Trans Am (though with a few tweaks).
My father was a Buick salesman from 1970 to 1986 and 1990 to 2006. I know a thing or two about Buicks
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 215
From: ********.com
You know, from back in the days when Camaros actually sold.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
