I think it will be competitively priced. Maybe a grand or two more than the Chevy with all the options. This is where GM could get into trouble. Al's letter was boasting how everything comes standard on the ZL1. That'll be great if the base GT500 starts at $55k but what if it doesn't? Honestly, most of the target customers for these cars are going to be the retired, drive to cruise in a Sonic on Friday nights, and rarely if ever drive hard for extended periods crowd. So why force them to pay for the coolers and such if they don't have to? I can't see these cars exploding rears and trannies with the occasional stoplight run or 1/4 mile pass without the extras. So if Ford offers a base GT500 for $49,900 or a smidge less then what?

 

You are trying to equate what Al said after the car was completed, to how they approached the design in the first place? Not even close to the same thing.

Do you think GM started the ZL1 by saying "We need to beat Mustang in the following categories: 1/4 mile, horsepower, wheel size, etc."? That doesn't even make sense to me. First off, why would anyone design a car to be better than a car that is already in production? That would be extremely shortsighted, and you would always be chasing a previous models.

So you have two options for the next car - one is to try to anticipate what they are going to try to do, and the other is just build the best you can without giving a crap about what the competitor is doing. So which one would you do if you were Al - Mr. Cosby? It is pretty obvious to me which one Al did. And the ZL1 is the better car for it.

-Geoff

 

1. The car that can make better use of it's power will win, everytime. The CTS-V and current SS don't have the traction issues that the GT500 always had, and will still have.

2. The GTR will still accelerate faster than most cars with a HP advantage and lower weight AFTER the AWD advantage is no longer present.

The comparison is valid. Furthermore, the GT500 has underperformed for it's power since the day it was introduced. IMO the Camaro will be slightly quicker, and the GT500 slightly faster.

 

Do you really think they aren't addressing the traction issues? This isn't a 700hp Super Snake for people that just want to brag about numbers and not run any faster. Solid rear axle can put down the power better than an IRS can, current CTS-V is faster in the 1/4 than last years GT500 never said it wasn't but that was last years model with hp figures that were very close to each other and they have put some time and money into dialing in the car this year. I'm not even getting into a debate about the GTR since it has no merit in this conversation and just diverts it into another realm.

 

No, I'm not, but thank you for putting words in my mouth anyway.

No, I think they started off by saying "we need to beat Mustang in sales. How do we do that?" Part of that "how" likely included things like superior acceleration, handling, etc. HP too...reference the V6 HP increase that for some reason jumped over Mustang a year after Mustang came out. Things that make you say hmmmm....

Wheel size? Nah, not so much.

LOL. Yup. Why indeed.....

Wow. Settle down dude. I simply disagree with your statement that "Beating Ford is like 20th on list if it is even on the list", and I think the reference to that link is ample evidence. Yes, I believe GM does target certain cars for certain segments. What do you think the CTS-V targets? Nothing? How about the GMC Sierra? GM doesn't care about F-150 or Ram? And yes, even the Camaro.

FWIW...I'd say Camaro is doing pretty well in the only metric that really matters to GM...it is out-selling Mustang (and ya, I'm pretty sure they care about that, too).

Bob

PS...I think GM did both....they built that best ZL1 they could given the resources and restrictions they had to work with (primarily the chassis and engine), and they absolutely do try to anticipate what Ford is going to to with Mustang, because like it or not, they are direct competitors.

 

The solid axle has more POTENTIAL to work better than the solid axle, but it almost never does in stock form. Funny how the Corvette and late CTS-V guys seem to do just fine with their IRS. It's also funny how both are quicker off the line

 

Bob, I think we mostly agree on everything. My only point was that GM goes out to build the best car. It doesn't give a crap about lining up numbers line for line on a spec sheet. And if GM cared about the GT500 they would have brought one to the ring. The Ring is just a benchmarking tool. It tells you how much you have improved.

The horsepower thing on the V6 was gamesmanship. Ford is getting them back for that with the GT500 announcement coming out concurrently with the ZL1.

-Geoff

 

I guess nobody noticed GM testing GT500's when they were building this car, considering we all saw the pics. http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98470

 

Those are the people that have Corvettes.

 

I have a Corvette - bite your tongue!

As for IRS vs Live Axle on the drag strip....the live axle's advantages are durability, weight, and cost - not absolute hooking ability. In fact, if you could build an IRS just as cheap as a live axle, just as light as a live axle, and just as durable as a live axle, it would be better on the drag strip too (at least on a street car), as it would be able to potentially keep both back tires planted more evenly as the body twisted.

Unfortunately, the IRS is more expensive, heavier, and breaks more often....so the live axle gets the nod.

 

Out of contect but this...

Not to bring up sales in a HP pissing contect but without Camaro eating the Mustangs lunch on weekdays in the showroom there isn't a 650 HP GT500.

We can talk ZL1 all day but Ford wasn't stupid they knew GM wasn't going to use the LS9 or LS7 in a Camaro and it wasn't difficult to figure out how to trump the LSA at least in advertised HP.

Ford is in an all out war to get the Mustang back as the segement sales leader. Why else would the car get an interior update, new engines across the line and 2 styling updates in within 4 model years not to mention the return of the BOSS 302.

Kudos to Ford because we have not seen a cold war style HP standoff like this since the late 60's.

However it's an almost a complete roll reversal from the 4th Gen days where the quickest pony car once again does not represent the sales leader.

 

Agreed.

 

Cool, now I can start picking on you guys, talking about how a car with only 580 hp is for school girls and dudes with lacey underwear

Yeah, thought I forgot about that stuff

 

Sent from my DROID Pro using Tapatalk

 

http://mustangsdaily.com/blog/2011/1...percharged-v8/
A look inside the 2013 GT500's internals, still the same big ol stroke with the bore increase yet the 5.8 revs to 7000 rpm thanks to its 4v layout.

Not mentioned here but Ford likes a stable valvetrain to about 400 rpm after the rev limiter kicks in. Thats not an absolute ceiling mind you since the Boss 302 saw much higher revs during development due to some missed shifts at around 9,000 rpm.

http://mustangsdaily.com/blog/2011/1...he-camaro-zl1/
And Hameedi saying that the ZL1 wasn't the sole reason for the big increase in power which seems reasonable since the difference in performance between the Boss and GT500 was getting slim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wik6h...layer_embedded
and a link to why the GT500 still uses the 285 series tire on the rear and 255 series on the front.