Yup.. Born and raised there.. Drive by their headquaters on route 70 on the way to Philly..

Moved to Oregon after college to work..

anyways, if this was available back in 99 when I was getting my Camaro.. I would have considered the STi too.

Not thrilled about the $30k price, but considering I saw 2002 SS's and Firebirds going for about $32k (at a car show i saw a Firebird with sticker price of $36,000.. litereally people were saying "$36k for a Firebird? What?") An Audi A4 starts around $30k... so the price isn't totally out there...

How close are production WRX and Evo's to the ones to those Rally races?

 

Ya, there were a few rumors flying around of something like that (Chevy badged WRX), but it never came to be, and I think they were just rumors.

Actually, the way it sounds, the new 2005/6 AWD Grand Am from Pontiac might be a serious contender in this field.... , especially if it offers hot performance, AWD, and (the lynch pin to me) acceptable looks ....time will tell.

As for Cavalier... well, I certainly won't argue that it is old and outdated... but at least the Delta replacement is coming for 2005. They have a prototype line set up at Lordstown Assembly already from what I've heard from people from the plant.

 

See, therein lies the fallacy. The Impreza has considerable amounts of time and research put into engineering a platform capable of performance because of the participation in World Rally Competition. Don't think that is not the case just because WRC isn't as popular over here! These ARE NOT Cavaliers and Neons with an afterthought makeover. Just ask Subaru if they did not have performance in mind when they were developing the latest Impreza. In fact, I'll wager its chassis is considerably more performance-oriented than the latest F-bodies! And my WRX which finds its roots in a "cheap, economical" sedan, has vastly better quality and fit&finish inside and out than inferrably superior F-body.

Again, it withstands that people are unfamiliar with these cars and resort to generalizations for what is a vast, and varied range of cars built under different circumstances. You are asbolutely right, I would have a problem with a $30,000 Cavalier!

BTW, the "lowly" Impreza RS has an MSRP of $19945--not $12 or $15k. Again, this is not the samething as a mass-produced nofrills/cheap Cavalier and Neon.

 

GM does own 20% of Subaru's parent company Fuji Heavy Industries. They are going to base the new Saab 9-2 five-door off of the WRX.

 

The problem you'd have with a $30,000 Cavalier is what some people have paying $30 grand for the WRX & EVO. Imagine GM's performance division taking the Cavalier chassis & adding all the reinforcements & upgrades done to the Lancer & Impreza, as you point out, you'd have a bit of a problem with it. That's how I view the new EVO and upgraded WRX.

I don't think anyone's saying the cars are junk, and that alot of effort hasn't went into making these cars able to handle the power & traction of turbo AWD. But even giving every single benefit imaginable to structural and performance upgrades, I honestly don't see how it costs $6,000 more than a already modified current edition WRX.

Then again, there's that $4,000 Camaro SS hood & label package, so maybe GM's influence at Subaru is increasing & rubbing off at Mitsubishi.

 

It's funny how factory "rally cars" began as homologation specials for competition cars. At some point, manufacturers in Europe and Japan figured out that these cars would sell in reasonable numbers. They aren't highly engineered in the same sense as a Corvette or BMW. In fact, other than the late, great Ford Escort Cosworth and Lancia Delta Integrale, they are just econo-sedans with tacked on performance.

Of course, I forgot to mention that rally cars caught on in America because of videogames - thank you Sony Playstation. In our country these cars will see less dirt than a soccer mom's Explorer. Cars like the WRX and Evo are just replacements for the import performance coupes that died or were watered down. It's all about fantasy.

The Dodge SRT-4 puts fantasy aside, because after all, it doesn't pretend to be a homologation special. D-C is daring to be different, and instead of milking the rally car spin, they're offering a genuine performance value. Sure, they could have larded it up with AWD and Brembo brakes, but then it would have been another pricey poser. If a person can get past the image of driving a Neon, an SRT-4 is the mature performance choice.

 

Well these cars were and continue to be popular elsewhere before starring in video games. Maybe AWD and Brembo brakes are poser components to you, but to most they provide legitimate benefits. Then again, you consider torque steer to be a postitive factor in a "mature performance choice." The SRT-4 is a nice car on a TIGHT budget. It's better than a Sentra SE-R or SVT Focus, but it's short of these other cars were tossing around.

Funny how on a board centered around a car that made a name for itself from various racing series, the idea of "milking" participation in another racing series would be considered a bad thing. I guess Chevy or Pontiac have never pushed the IROC or TA angle. And how did "Z/28" come to be again??

Some of you just like going to lengths to slam what are perfectly legitimate performance cars.

 

I agree with you 100%. The Evo and the new WRX are both Awesome cars and if you ask me, the tight suspension, 50-70hp, Brembo Brakes, AWD, HID's and other features are definately worth the extra $10,000 that youd spend on these cars vs. a SRT-4 or anythign like it. Hell, these cars are great performers at a great price.

 

you mean $4000 Hood, spoiler, rims, tires, exhust, suspension, badge package

 

I'd say 75hp and highly improved suspension and brakes are a bit more than a "hood and label package".

 

75 horsepower increase?!!!!

Sorry, my friend, that's only in the brochures. Especially since 1999, the actual difference between the base $23,000 Z28 and your $30,000+ SS is BARELY 15hp, if that. To put this into perspective, that's roughly a K&N filter & a cat back system on a base Z28. The last few years, all LS blocks were the same (both the LS1 & the LS6's difference was pretty much limited to the induction system and heads). All LS1s, including the base Z28s, SSs, and Corvette LS1s all had very close to the same horsepower. Chevrolet simply GROSSLY underrated the base Z28's horsepower to make the closer to actual HP ratings of the SS seem like a big jump. Pretty much every RWHP test ever done of the 2 cars bear this out.

That hood induction system added next to no actual performance advantage to the stock Z28. In the final few years, the ONLY difference between Corvette's LS1 & the F-body's was that the F-body had a cam that brought torque on at lower RPM, and that Corvette had a less restrictive exhaust (due more to the manifold than the rest of the system).

As for the suspension & brakes, the bottom line performance difference is very marginal at best.

In the end, the whole package isn't worth the extra price by a long shot. A magazine (I'd have to look it up) got far better performance out of a Z28 with relatively low cost tweaks (under $1000 total) than what was done with the $3,000 SS package.

Sorry to be the one to break this to ya.

 

I think he was talking about the Evo/WRX Sti.

 

Yeah I was comparing the WRX to the WRX STi. Stock WRX is 225 hp, WRX STi is 300hp. Not to mention that the engine is actually different (2.5L vs. 2.0L).

I agree that the Camaro SS package is a lot of money for not a whole lot of stuff. I'd still want one if I had an LS-1 tho, the scoop makes them look so much better. :-D

 

I would still argue that the $4,000 SLP packages were worth it, although not for me. Sure, the power upgrade was good mostly for sound effects, but these cars were more about handling and style. In any case, you couldn't beat the value of the SS upgrades, unless you were willing to spend time and money on voiding your waranty. These days, GM even treats aftermarket rims as waranty voiding features.

Another thing that irks me is this K&N airfilter crap. Any idiot can make a less restrictive airfilter, but the factory unit is normally better at keeping "foriegn particles" out of the engine. Modern catback exhaust are another issue - buy one for the sound effects, not because you expect major performance. In any case, none of these simple mods amount to much horsepower for the money.

 

How can they be "worth it"? It's not like GM didn't install Wheels, Spoilers, Hoods, sway bars and badges on every other Camaro. You were getting those things anyway, and the ones on the SS weren't $4,000 "better".