Kodiak Series

 

Pops,

The 8100 and 502 are pretty different blocks. They use a lot of different parts even though some of the internals are interchangeable. They might be able to be cut on the same lines but they run 4.250" bores vs. the 4.470" bores on the 502's and they are a 10.200" deck vs. the 9.800" deck on the 502's.... not to mention the other differences. (even different cam cores) so I doubt they are cut on the same line.

I think I heard $13K


The Kid

 

Thanks, Kid.

 

Got your order in yet Jon?

You can get em' at MSRP if you have a friend at a dealership.

I won't be one of the first but 9/22 is not that far away!

-Mindgame

 

said in eric cartman voice......."i hate you guyz"

 

The first posted price with a part number that I saw was $12.5k, but that's since been retracted. Apparently they're going to have a "shortage" of LS7 engines (despite having the capacity to produce a couple hundred a day) and the price for the crate engine is reported to be jumping to $16-18k.

I think what happened is that so many people put deposits on them the minute the pricing was posted that they thought they'd better up the price and make some more profit while demand was high.

The LS7 is too tall to fit under the stock hood of my car and I'd have to modify my engine cradle and dent the hell out of my firewall to even get one to fit, so I'll stick with building an all-aluminum 7.0 liter small block the hard way.

 

Just brainstorming a bit, but here's my take on the iron vs. aluminum discrepincy:

1) Machining costs are higher on iron/steel. Tools wear faster, require more tolerance checking I'd assume, and of course have a shorter life cycle.

2) iron is HEAVY... and gas prices are high. No I'm not talking about a crazy EPA/CAFE tax on iron blocks... more like a Saudi one. Shipping and iron block probably costs a fair bit more due to more durable crates, and the weight from the both the block AND the crate's extra weight.

3) aluminum can be recycled easily. I imagine there's a pretty complicated recycling program at any machine shop. Seeing how much is shaved from a cast item like a block, I imagine the recycling of the Al is easier to deal with (lighter to transport/package) than the iron/steel shavings.

the whole operation sounds much easier with aluminum. It was my understanding that the aftermarket marks up aluminum for 2 reasons: a) lower strength of aluminum requires a new mold/block design (so there's a big retooling design based on a proven iron-block), and b) the weight savings is important to racers... and they know it.

 

Most of the cost of machining is the machine time, not the disposable tools. Aluminum machines considerably faster than iron. Ask a head porter. That's minus cost for aluminum. Decent machine shops will check critical dimensions on every block. They even send the customer the data on stuff like Bowtie CNC blocks. Actually, because of thermal growth, aluminum is more touchy, so checking, etc. is about a push.

A minor point if you are doing a truckload of blocks. The extra 90-100 lbs per block might be a few bucks at most. Shipping one to an end user isn't included in the block retail price. Another tiny minus cost for aluminum.
Chips from manufacturing don't bring a lot of cash, but the scrap guys pick them up. 10 lbs or so of aluminum chips won't buy you a beer. Cast iron chips from one block won't buy you a candy bar. Another tiny minus cost for aluminum.
Yep, an aluminum block requires a new design, let alone either wet or dry sleeves for the cylinder bores. That's a lot tougher than just machining a cast iron block.

All in all, low volume (compared to OEM production of millions) aluminum blocks which replace iron ones is costly due to the design, development and tooling of a new block, the sleeves, and the basic cost of the aluminum. Remember that aluminum, the most abundant metal on earth, couldn't really be refined until electricity was available. It still takes lots of electric power to smelt aluminum. Many aluminum plants are located near hydroelectric power plants. Even hydropower ain't cheap today. A BIG plus cost for aluminum, probably 10 x the small savings, or maybe 100 X.

So, if we are getting "bargain" LS2 blocks it's because they are falling off the production line like m&ms...well, almost that fast. Aftermarket aluminum blocks are more costly for the above reasons, and non-production iron blocks cost a lot to machine, compared to OEM production. (Machine) time is money.

My brainstorming on this subject. There are two sides (at least) to most issues, huh?

 

I'm still guessing it's an overhead issue.

Some folks are talking about the cost of the machining and the machine it's being done on.

What about the factory itself? The labor costs, the cost of electricity & heat, etc. What about local conditions? Taxes, rent, etc...

Overhead runs into a lot of areas that you might not think about.

 

Lame, you just ain't believing much I say, are you? That's ok, BTW. I'm a pig-headed SOB. Ask those who know. Anyhoo...

The bigger trucks (4500 et al) you linked to use the Vortec 8100 ( the 8.1 reffered to above) That's not the 502, as the Kid mentioned.

Overhead or "burden" could be a part of the cost structure, but it's more a question of logistics and basic economics. GM's performance engine parts sales are such a teensy fraction of the billions of sales $ that it really doesn't matter why they charge what they do. Dumping current production crate engines for a few thou, considerably more than it costs, is good for them and good for us. Offering speciality, non-current production parts is the least costly if they buy them outside and mark them up to what the market says they are worth. If they become non-competitive with World or Dart, they might just drop out of that part of the business. Hey, who's to say some of the aftermarket folks aren't making parts for GMPP. Of course they are.

Surely World or Dart's overhead is less than GM's, but the major thing is that they are in different businesses. Folks like World or Dart could supply parts to GM at a volume price, and those parts would retail at just about the same as World's version. By "volume" I mean hundreds or a few thousand a YEAR, not a few thousand a DAY, like OEM engine prolduction.

Anytime an OEM wanted out a certain portion of the performance parts market, they could just raise prices high enough to stop sales. Remember, performance parts is more a marketing thing than a huge profit center. It's similar to sponsoring race teams...marketing bang for the buck. No bang, no buck.

Sorry about raggin' on you 'Lame. Really..

 

LOL, I'm believeing EVERYTHING you say.


I just didn't think that the things you said were sufficient, BY THEMSELVES; to account for it.

And of course I have to keep in mind that maybe this really has nothing to do with any of this and is purely GM management decision driven.

 

The Old One knows a lot more about this than I do, so it's a good idea to listen to him! I bet you could come up many different figures for the "cost" of a complex product like a cylinder block. What portion of the overhead do you ascribe to each block (out of the many produced in the same factory, what period of time do you amortize the tooling costs over, how do you figure "opportunity cost" (what you could produce with the same equipment if you weren't making the particular block), and so on. What number you would come up with would probably depend on what point you trying to prove

And then, you have to decide how to price it. Also a complex decision. Just deciding what price will maximize profits is an art and science in itself. But there are other considerations. Are you trying to accomplish something other than maximizing profits? I suspect this with the prices GM is charging for blocks, which is why I started the thread. To get an idea of what others think, and I have been given some food for thought. Compared to Ford and Chrysler, the GM blocks seem to be lower than comparable pieces from the other two. For aftermarket stuff, I am guessing it's a volume issue - the SBC must be #1 and the BBC #2 in volume of use for motorsports. But the GM pieces also seem a bit less expensive from the factory, especially when compared with Chrysler. Of course, as suggested by the Old One, the lower volume Mopar stuff may ALL be outsourced, making it more expensive.

I am not sure why I get interested in such "trivial" stuff. I guess it's part of what makes the car hobby so interesting to me. Not only is it sport and recreation, but it involves engineering, psychology, manufacturing, marketing, metallurgy, etc. And I guess I just like information.

Well, I gotta go - the weather is fine, the track is open, I am off work though with just a couple hours of sleep, my buddy is taking out his alcohol blown Hemi, and I have to decide if I am going to beat on the big block or the small block!

 

Ditto!

The Old One

 

Guess not. :blah:

stealthblack,

My 02' is for sale if you're interested. Less than 10k on the odometer and very well maintained.

-Mindgame

 

thanks but i just bought a new GTO, so between that and sortin out the 3d gens motor after daily driver abuse for 3 mos im tapped out.
might be time to go back on the street for some $.........