Valve springs and titanium top end
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 878
From: Clovis, NM
Valve springs and titanium top end
On the intake side I have delwest 5/16'' stem +.100 long 2.05 valves, and there Super7 light weight 1.460'' Ti retainers and matching 5/16'' super7 delwest +.05 locks.
The exhaust are excelidine 11/32'' stem +.150 long 1.60 valves and have super7 +.050'' locks and the same delwest titanium retainers.
Most of them are slightly used.
These Titanium parts weigh all most nothing compaired to the smaller steel parts I'm useing on the V6.
The rest of the valve trane is going to be Al roller rockers, custom 5/16'' push rods around 7.500'' long I'm guessing, with crane hydaulic roller lifters. The total lift should be around .610''/.620'' with the cam and rockers I like.
The springs I found are K-motion K-800
They seat at 165lb at 1.850'' that is about where I'll have them.
There open at 470lb at 1.200'' I plain to shim them so they get opened right about to 1.200''.
There a duel spring, too.
I have looked around and the Kmotion springs seam to be the only ones worth a crap compaired to all the compcam springs and what crane springs I saw.
I'll spin it about 7,100 at the most.
The exhaust are excelidine 11/32'' stem +.150 long 1.60 valves and have super7 +.050'' locks and the same delwest titanium retainers.
Most of them are slightly used.
These Titanium parts weigh all most nothing compaired to the smaller steel parts I'm useing on the V6.
The rest of the valve trane is going to be Al roller rockers, custom 5/16'' push rods around 7.500'' long I'm guessing, with crane hydaulic roller lifters. The total lift should be around .610''/.620'' with the cam and rockers I like.
The springs I found are K-motion K-800
They seat at 165lb at 1.850'' that is about where I'll have them.
There open at 470lb at 1.200'' I plain to shim them so they get opened right about to 1.200''.
There a duel spring, too.
I have looked around and the Kmotion springs seam to be the only ones worth a crap compaired to all the compcam springs and what crane springs I saw.
I'll spin it about 7,100 at the most.
Last edited by oil pan 4; May 30, 2004 at 10:30 AM.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 878
From: Clovis, NM
Left that out
Will kmotion K-800 duel springs be enough to keep the valves under controal?
There specs are.
165lb. seat pressure @ 1.850''
470lb. open pressure @ 1.20''
They bind at 1.085''
There good for .650'' and I was going to shim them so they were sitting near 1.200'' when opened.
It was late here when I typed that
.
Will kmotion K-800 duel springs be enough to keep the valves under controal?
There specs are.
165lb. seat pressure @ 1.850''
470lb. open pressure @ 1.20''
They bind at 1.085''
There good for .650'' and I was going to shim them so they were sitting near 1.200'' when opened.
It was late here when I typed that
.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,931
From: Upstate NY
Originally posted by rskrause
I have some doubt about using aluminum rockers with this kind of a setup. But more to the point, that's a lot of pressure for hydraulic lifters.
Rich Krause
I have some doubt about using aluminum rockers with this kind of a setup. But more to the point, that's a lot of pressure for hydraulic lifters.
Rich Krause
If you haven't already, how about getting some valvetrain parts advice from a pro. Ti stuff is nice and light, but the whole package has to work well together. IMO, what you've listed might not work so well, especially at 7000+.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,985
From: In a house by the bay
You are in solid roller cam territory and just haven't figured it out yet.....
And not to rub salt into an open wound, but titanium is a waste of money at these kind of rpms... especially for a street motor.
Oldsstroker,
We really need to define that term "Pro" sometime, don't we.
-Mindgame
And not to rub salt into an open wound, but titanium is a waste of money at these kind of rpms... especially for a street motor.
Oldsstroker,
We really need to define that term "Pro" sometime, don't we.
-Mindgame
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,931
From: Upstate NY
Originally posted by Mindgame
Oldsstroker,
We really need to define that term "Pro" sometime, don't we.
-Mindgame
Oldsstroker,
We really need to define that term "Pro" sometime, don't we.
-Mindgame
What's yours?
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,985
From: In a house by the bay
lol @ hooker.
Mine is much the same as yours OldSS. I understand you guys (Bret and yourself) have a few connections with Comp Cams. Most of these guys are going to get no better than a chat with a desk-tech if they call one of the cam companies. What would you suggest for someone in this boat?
I have heard some pretty off-the-wall 2nd-hand stuff from those who've dealt with them. They seem to be good with specing for the typical builds but not so on the more radical setups.
I always tell my friends to go to an accomplished engine builder but I'm curious about your opinion on this.
-Mindgame
Mine is much the same as yours OldSS. I understand you guys (Bret and yourself) have a few connections with Comp Cams. Most of these guys are going to get no better than a chat with a desk-tech if they call one of the cam companies. What would you suggest for someone in this boat?
I have heard some pretty off-the-wall 2nd-hand stuff from those who've dealt with them. They seem to be good with specing for the typical builds but not so on the more radical setups.
I always tell my friends to go to an accomplished engine builder but I'm curious about your opinion on this.
-Mindgame
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Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 10,745
From: Buffalo, New York
MG: you are on to something, as usual. The less "typical" your combo the more you need a real expert (aka "professional"). I am pretty knowledgable about cams but paid Bret to spec out my new one. It was money well spent as I run both a blower and nitrous AND put ~5,000 street miles on a year. I am also pretty fussy about what I consider "streetable". Not your typical combo and hence the need for specialized advice.
Rich Krause
Rich Krause
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 6,518
Originally posted by oil pan 4
Left that out
Will kmotion K-800 duel springs be enough to keep the valves under controal?
There specs are.
165lb. seat pressure @ 1.850''
470lb. open pressure @ 1.20''
They bind at 1.085''
There good for .650'' and I was going to shim them so they were sitting near 1.200'' when opened.
It was late here when I typed that .
Left that out
Will kmotion K-800 duel springs be enough to keep the valves under controal?
There specs are.
165lb. seat pressure @ 1.850''
470lb. open pressure @ 1.20''
They bind at 1.085''
There good for .650'' and I was going to shim them so they were sitting near 1.200'' when opened.
It was late here when I typed that
.
That spring pressure would work on a SR cam with that light of valvetrain and some tame SR lobes, but I have yet to figure out the reason for all the Ti here?
I'm going to go with everyone on the Al rockers here. That and the pushrods could have some more money spent on them and keep all the valves steel and you would be $$$ ahead, but we are past that now. Still seems like your bucks up on the Ti parts and rockers and pushrods are light yes but light means nothing when they flex and lose most of your valve lift at high RPM.
Rich I'm glad to hear your cam is work well, I want to see that dyno chart when you have it.
Bret
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,931
From: Upstate NY
Originally posted by Mindgame
lol @ hooker.
Mine is much the same as yours OldSS. I understand you guys (Bret and yourself) have a few connections with Comp Cams. Most of these guys are going to get no better than a chat with a desk-tech if they call one of the cam companies. What would you suggest for someone in this boat?
Personally, I ask Bret. Seriously.
I understand the physics and mechanics of the valvetrain and the dynamic loads it receives, but I don't spend the time simulating and researching individual combinations. I'm not in the engine building business. He is.
It takes time to determine what each engine needs, not just lobe profiles and timing, but all the correct ancillary parts to make the valve motion what you (or your engine person) want. I've not seen an all-inclusive bit of software that allows you to fill in the blanks and pop out the part numbers you need.
I have heard some pretty off-the-wall 2nd-hand stuff from those who've dealt with them. They seem to be good with specing for the typical builds but not so on the more radical setups.
Exactly what one should expect; typical builds with fairly mild profiles and reasonable rpm limits don't need the last jillionth of stiffness/weight ratio to perform. If you are closer to the edge of the envelope, the typical combo might not be optimum. "Speed costs money, etc..." Someone has to spend the time to figure out what is needed. In the case of Cup engines, I suspect it's a combination of the cam manufacturer guys (not the ones on the phones!) and the engine shops. My guess is the the first steps are selecting the most compatible components, then lots of Spintron testing to see what is actually happening, then component changes or new component design. None of this is free, whether the Cup teams pay for it or the cam company pays.
I always tell my friends to go to an accomplished engine builder but I'm curious about your opinion on this.
-Mindgame
Exactly the same as yours. If I sound like an ad for Bret, forgive me; I am prejudiced. I've heard of other folks who do a good job. Joe O. comes to mind. I don't think one needs to stick with any particular engine/valvetrain designer, but choose one who you think will do a thorough job with your particular combination. Don't expect a free lunch, but you should get what you pay for.
My $.02
lol @ hooker.
Mine is much the same as yours OldSS. I understand you guys (Bret and yourself) have a few connections with Comp Cams. Most of these guys are going to get no better than a chat with a desk-tech if they call one of the cam companies. What would you suggest for someone in this boat?
Personally, I ask Bret. Seriously.
I understand the physics and mechanics of the valvetrain and the dynamic loads it receives, but I don't spend the time simulating and researching individual combinations. I'm not in the engine building business. He is.
It takes time to determine what each engine needs, not just lobe profiles and timing, but all the correct ancillary parts to make the valve motion what you (or your engine person) want. I've not seen an all-inclusive bit of software that allows you to fill in the blanks and pop out the part numbers you need.
I have heard some pretty off-the-wall 2nd-hand stuff from those who've dealt with them. They seem to be good with specing for the typical builds but not so on the more radical setups.
Exactly what one should expect; typical builds with fairly mild profiles and reasonable rpm limits don't need the last jillionth of stiffness/weight ratio to perform. If you are closer to the edge of the envelope, the typical combo might not be optimum. "Speed costs money, etc..." Someone has to spend the time to figure out what is needed. In the case of Cup engines, I suspect it's a combination of the cam manufacturer guys (not the ones on the phones!) and the engine shops. My guess is the the first steps are selecting the most compatible components, then lots of Spintron testing to see what is actually happening, then component changes or new component design. None of this is free, whether the Cup teams pay for it or the cam company pays.
I always tell my friends to go to an accomplished engine builder but I'm curious about your opinion on this.
-Mindgame
Exactly the same as yours. If I sound like an ad for Bret, forgive me; I am prejudiced. I've heard of other folks who do a good job. Joe O. comes to mind. I don't think one needs to stick with any particular engine/valvetrain designer, but choose one who you think will do a thorough job with your particular combination. Don't expect a free lunch, but you should get what you pay for.
My $.02
Last edited by OldSStroker; Jun 1, 2004 at 09:36 AM.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 878
From: Clovis, NM
I have looked at solid roller cams thay are way out there as far as duration, rpm power range being all high end and the big valve overlaps.
Now should I get some compcam SS rockers?
Would they be tough enough?
I'll use SS roller rockers if you think I should, I saved a lot of weight with that Ti, I can add some back.
How about custom (because of perdicted odd length) hardened 5/16'' push rods with a guide plate so they don't flex?
I though about those SS rockers for a little while but though Al rockers would be the way to go because of weigh.
The cam is a 87-96 crane roller with about
234*/242* duration @ .050
The lift with a AL 1.65 rocker was going to be about .620''/.630''.
If I have to use plane 1.6 SS rockers that will put me back at about .600'' lift on both sides.
It isn't a 2-272-H that's my V6's cam.
I put all the Ti together for about $460 with slightly used stuff that people didn't want or couldn't use any more, with left overs but only some +.050 bead lock 11/32'' super7 locks for 8 valves . Hence the 5/16'' 2.05 valves that are allmost new (still clearly see the del west logo and hardly see valve guide marks) that I got for about $150 (there woth evey cent), now if they were 11/32'' 2.05 I would have paid twice that because of how new they are.
You can get 11/32'' 1.60 exhaust valves any any length for cheap.
The only thing I realy paid for was those super7 5/16'' +.050 locks Ti for the intakes thay went for like $90, ouch!
Now should I get some compcam SS rockers?
Would they be tough enough?
I'll use SS roller rockers if you think I should, I saved a lot of weight with that Ti, I can add some back.
How about custom (because of perdicted odd length) hardened 5/16'' push rods with a guide plate so they don't flex?
I though about those SS rockers for a little while but though Al rockers would be the way to go because of weigh.
The cam is a 87-96 crane roller with about
234*/242* duration @ .050
The lift with a AL 1.65 rocker was going to be about .620''/.630''.
If I have to use plane 1.6 SS rockers that will put me back at about .600'' lift on both sides.
It isn't a 2-272-H that's my V6's cam.
I put all the Ti together for about $460 with slightly used stuff that people didn't want or couldn't use any more, with left overs but only some +.050 bead lock 11/32'' super7 locks for 8 valves . Hence the 5/16'' 2.05 valves that are allmost new (still clearly see the del west logo and hardly see valve guide marks) that I got for about $150 (there woth evey cent), now if they were 11/32'' 2.05 I would have paid twice that because of how new they are.
You can get 11/32'' 1.60 exhaust valves any any length for cheap.
The only thing I realy paid for was those super7 5/16'' +.050 locks Ti for the intakes thay went for like $90, ouch!
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 1,445
From: Seattle, WA
Re: Valve springs and titanium top end
Originally posted by oil pan 4
I'll spin it about 7,100 at the most.
I'll spin it about 7,100 at the most.
spring retainers I understand, I'll probably get some in my stroker build-up as well... but valves are something I just can't afford to play with. Titanium is much softer than steel and tulips in heat much faster from what I'm told. Any chance you could sell the valves and get some Ferrea stainless valves instead? They'll last A LOT longer.... especially under 7100rpms.
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 6,518
Originally posted by oil pan 4
I have looked at solid roller cams thay are way out there as far as duration, rpm power range being all high end and the big valve overlaps.
I have looked at solid roller cams thay are way out there as far as duration, rpm power range being all high end and the big valve overlaps.
The rest of the heads, flow numbers, runner size? etc.... I'm guessing a LT1? Might need more overlap or less, SR's don't have to be big overlap monsters
Originally posted by oil pan 4
The cam is a 87-96 crane roller with about
234*/242* duration @ .050
The cam is a 87-96 crane roller with about
234*/242* duration @ .050
That cam might be perfect it might also be wrong for what you are doing. Don't know yet
Originally posted by oil pan 4
Now should I get some compcam SS rockers?
Would they be tough enough?
I'll use SS roller rockers if you think I should, I saved a lot of weight with that Ti, I can add some back.
I though about those SS rockers for a little while but though Al rockers would be the way to go because of weight.
Now should I get some compcam SS rockers?
Would they be tough enough?
I'll use SS roller rockers if you think I should, I saved a lot of weight with that Ti, I can add some back.
I though about those SS rockers for a little while but though Al rockers would be the way to go because of weight.
http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Cu...g/HTML/313.asp
If you want to go ***** out a set of Crower Stainless Shaft Mounts will work even better, but that is probably more overkill than the Ti valves.
Originally posted by oil pan 4
The lift with a AL 1.65 rocker was going to be about .620''/.630''.
If I have to use plane 1.6 SS rockers that will put me back at about .600'' lift on both sides.
The lift with a AL 1.65 rocker was going to be about .620''/.630''.
If I have to use plane 1.6 SS rockers that will put me back at about .600'' lift on both sides.
You can get Hi Tech Stainless rockers in 1.5, 1.6, 1.65, 1.7 and 1.8
Some of these questions I can answer here, others I'd answer in private e-mail.
I'm sure guys here can help, after we all get over the Ti parts there is probably some help that can be offered.
Bret