Rotating Assembly
03-13-2003, 08:01 PM
#1
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: Seattle Area
Posts: 199
Rotating Assembly
After having nightmares of my stock 400 block's mains crapping out on me when I install the twin turbo system this spring, I concluded I was going to need an aftermarket block. So I am buying a Dart Little M block, 9.025" deck w/ 350 mains.
Now I need help choosing a replacment rotating assembly. This setup will be making 950 horsepower at the flywheel. Rev limit will be 6300 rpms.
Measurements are: 3.875" crank stroke w/ 350 mains, 6.0" rods, and 4.155" pistons, with at least a 10cc dish.
What manufactuer's would you guys suggest? I was thinking Scat or Callies crank, Scat, Lunati or Crower rods, and JE or Arias pistons.
Strength, durability and life are what I am concerned with. Also I would likve to keep the whole assembly below $2500.
Any advice is welcomed. Thanks guys.
Hunter
Now I need help choosing a replacment rotating assembly. This setup will be making 950 horsepower at the flywheel. Rev limit will be 6300 rpms.
Measurements are: 3.875" crank stroke w/ 350 mains, 6.0" rods, and 4.155" pistons, with at least a 10cc dish.
What manufactuer's would you guys suggest? I was thinking Scat or Callies crank, Scat, Lunati or Crower rods, and JE or Arias pistons.
Strength, durability and life are what I am concerned with. Also I would likve to keep the whole assembly below $2500.
Any advice is welcomed. Thanks guys.
Hunter
03-13-2003, 09:12 PM
#3
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 2,931
Dart block sounds like a wise decision.
$2500 for crank, rods, pistons, pins and rings might work...maybe.
Choose you pistons very carefully. Try Oliver for a strong rod. I'm thinking $1200 for rods that will live a long time at 950. 4340 non-twisted forged crank, of course. Scat is good, and JE pistons. My $.02.
FWIW:
If I were going this route, I'd go smaller than the 420 cubes, maybe as small as a 380 (4.155 x 3.50) That 11% loss of cubes will probably pay off in more crank strength and lower piston gs. The parts will last longer, and you might only need an extra psi or 2 to get the same power. The only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST.
You didn't mention heads. You're looking for fairly large intake ports, right? Maybe 220+ cc or so?
$2500 for crank, rods, pistons, pins and rings might work...maybe.
Choose you pistons very carefully. Try Oliver for a strong rod. I'm thinking $1200 for rods that will live a long time at 950. 4340 non-twisted forged crank, of course. Scat is good, and JE pistons. My $.02.
FWIW:
If I were going this route, I'd go smaller than the 420 cubes, maybe as small as a 380 (4.155 x 3.50) That 11% loss of cubes will probably pay off in more crank strength and lower piston gs. The parts will last longer, and you might only need an extra psi or 2 to get the same power. The only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST.
You didn't mention heads. You're looking for fairly large intake ports, right? Maybe 220+ cc or so?
03-14-2003, 12:31 AM
#4
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: Seattle Area
Posts: 199
Didn't think of destroking it, but that brings up a great point. I know rod ratio and all the connecting rod length mystics are in high debate, but I have never heard of bad stories from going with a shorter stroke/more rod length.
I didn't account pins, locks or rings in my $2500.....that would be streching it. I think I can get the entire assembly for 3 grand.
How does this look:
3.5" Callies Dragon Slayer crank, still w/ 350 mains ~$750
6.0" Oliver Billet Rod $1190
JE pistons, everyone loves them sooooo much. ~$650
Another point that was brought to my attention, was the wrist pin being too far up in the piston, which could cause strength issues. The shorter stroke should help this, allowing for a 1.25" compression height, but how far is too far? Should I go for the tall deck block and allow for up to a 1.575" comp. height?
Yes heads..........what wonderful parts....but soooo many FREAKING choices!!!
Aluminum, larger that 220cc ports, AND 23 degree valves!!! AFR is my frist choice, then Canfields, and come serious Flowbench time.
And to make the engine REALLY trick, I am gonna get those electric blowers, two of em! I hear they make hella power!! LOL
Ok, I am leaving, gonna give JE a call and discuss this piston pin height dilema with them, and then check on possible heads.
Thanks guys
Hunter
I didn't account pins, locks or rings in my $2500.....that would be streching it. I think I can get the entire assembly for 3 grand.
How does this look:
3.5" Callies Dragon Slayer crank, still w/ 350 mains ~$750
6.0" Oliver Billet Rod $1190
JE pistons, everyone loves them sooooo much. ~$650
Another point that was brought to my attention, was the wrist pin being too far up in the piston, which could cause strength issues. The shorter stroke should help this, allowing for a 1.25" compression height, but how far is too far? Should I go for the tall deck block and allow for up to a 1.575" comp. height?
Yes heads..........what wonderful parts....but soooo many FREAKING choices!!!
Aluminum, larger that 220cc ports, AND 23 degree valves!!! AFR is my frist choice, then Canfields, and come serious Flowbench time.
And to make the engine REALLY trick, I am gonna get those electric blowers, two of em! I hear they make hella power!! LOL
Ok, I am leaving, gonna give JE a call and discuss this piston pin height dilema with them, and then check on possible heads.
Thanks guys
Hunter
03-14-2003, 02:59 AM
#5
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Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: looking for a flow bench so Brook and I can race
Posts: 3,505
Re: Rotating Assembly
Originally posted by teamsleep13
After having nightmares of my stock 400 block's mains crapping out on me when I install the twin turbo system this spring, I concluded I was going to need an aftermarket block. So I am buying a Dart Little M block, 9.025" deck w/ 350 mains.
Now I need help choosing a replacment rotating assembly. This setup will be making 950 horsepower at the flywheel. Rev limit will be 6300 rpms.
Measurements are: 3.875" crank stroke w/ 350 mains, 6.0" rods, and 4.155" pistons, with at least a 10cc dish.
What manufactuer's would you guys suggest? I was thinking Scat or Callies crank, Scat, Lunati or Crower rods, and JE or Arias pistons.
Strength, durability and life are what I am concerned with. Also I would likve to keep the whole assembly below $2500.
Any advice is welcomed. Thanks guys.
Hunter
After having nightmares of my stock 400 block's mains crapping out on me when I install the twin turbo system this spring, I concluded I was going to need an aftermarket block. So I am buying a Dart Little M block, 9.025" deck w/ 350 mains.
Now I need help choosing a replacment rotating assembly. This setup will be making 950 horsepower at the flywheel. Rev limit will be 6300 rpms.
Measurements are: 3.875" crank stroke w/ 350 mains, 6.0" rods, and 4.155" pistons, with at least a 10cc dish.
What manufactuer's would you guys suggest? I was thinking Scat or Callies crank, Scat, Lunati or Crower rods, and JE or Arias pistons.
Strength, durability and life are what I am concerned with. Also I would likve to keep the whole assembly below $2500.
Any advice is welcomed. Thanks guys.
Hunter
My main reason for posting is...
edit: answered my own question
its a custom block :doh!:
03-14-2003, 11:07 AM
#6
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 6,518
I'm with Old Stroker.......
The Rod Length is not the question, it's the speed of the piston and it's effect on the crankshaft. Slower speed (due to a shorter stroke) will be easier on the crank and the parts don't have to be as light. You need a long rod to lighten up the piston but short enought where you can run a deep enough dish for the llow compression. BTW -10cc in not even close to enough on a 420cube Turbo engine. Try -25 or -36.
JE 170818, a 4.155 x 3.75" piston, it's a blower piston with a big strong pin. Or call Diamond for a custom piston setup. Retail for custom pistons w/ blower pins is $760, I sell them so could cut you a deal on them. A coated piston will also save some piston life.
A 406 will not be a bad idea for a blower engine, but smaller will be better on parts as far as stroke goes.
For 950 you need Billet Rods, for it to live. The Olivers will handle anything forver, so you can sleep at night, but there are choices like Cat Pep which have a $750 set of 4340 Billet Rods which should handle the 900hp.
A Scat 3.75" crank would be nice that's around $700.
Heads:
AFR 227's
All Pro RR227SP-W or RR245-SP-23, (Spread Port Exhaust)
Dart Pro 1 227,235 or Race 220
Edlebrock Vic and Vic JR
Brodix -10, -10x, -11, -11x or any of the WP-10's
Flow will help, but so will runner size. 950hp even when it's being crammed into a cylinder needs room. Usually with room comes flow too. On a 12psi setup you can find a easy 150hp by making the head port the right size. You also need some serious exaust flow so look at that just as much as the intake flow. TEA doesn't have a 23deg head that's right for your setup, they usually have really high exhaust flow numbers.
Are you doing all of this on your own?
Bret
The Rod Length is not the question, it's the speed of the piston and it's effect on the crankshaft. Slower speed (due to a shorter stroke) will be easier on the crank and the parts don't have to be as light. You need a long rod to lighten up the piston but short enought where you can run a deep enough dish for the llow compression. BTW -10cc in not even close to enough on a 420cube Turbo engine. Try -25 or -36.
JE 170818, a 4.155 x 3.75" piston, it's a blower piston with a big strong pin. Or call Diamond for a custom piston setup. Retail for custom pistons w/ blower pins is $760, I sell them so could cut you a deal on them. A coated piston will also save some piston life.
A 406 will not be a bad idea for a blower engine, but smaller will be better on parts as far as stroke goes.
For 950 you need Billet Rods, for it to live. The Olivers will handle anything forver, so you can sleep at night, but there are choices like Cat Pep which have a $750 set of 4340 Billet Rods which should handle the 900hp.
A Scat 3.75" crank would be nice that's around $700.
Heads:
AFR 227's
All Pro RR227SP-W or RR245-SP-23, (Spread Port Exhaust)
Dart Pro 1 227,235 or Race 220
Edlebrock Vic and Vic JR
Brodix -10, -10x, -11, -11x or any of the WP-10's
Flow will help, but so will runner size. 950hp even when it's being crammed into a cylinder needs room. Usually with room comes flow too. On a 12psi setup you can find a easy 150hp by making the head port the right size. You also need some serious exaust flow so look at that just as much as the intake flow. TEA doesn't have a 23deg head that's right for your setup, they usually have really high exhaust flow numbers.
Are you doing all of this on your own?
Bret
03-14-2003, 06:43 PM
#7
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: Seattle Area
Posts: 199
For the crank, it's a toss up between either a 50lb Scat or a Callies Dragon Slayer. I am thinking about a 3.75" crank since I won't be reving it too high, no where past 6500, and rarely.
Oliver Billet rods sound good, as I do want it to live for a long time. I have heard that CAT products aren't to reliable or too consistent.
Haven't been able to call JE, but I am sure they are what I am gonna go with. I am planning on putting Swain's thermal coating on the piston crowns, and combustion camber, and on the piston skirts, their anti-friction coating.
As for heads...I am choosing between these three heads
AFR 227
Dart Pro1 227
Brodix WP -10 SP X
I really like the Brodix heads.....231cc's and at .4 inches of lift already 210 cfm on exhuast!!!! I don't supposed I could over scavenge the cylinders with the turbos.....?
Well this is bascially on my own with help from my dad and cousin, who both have some nice facilities at their disposle.
Hunter
Oliver Billet rods sound good, as I do want it to live for a long time. I have heard that CAT products aren't to reliable or too consistent.
Haven't been able to call JE, but I am sure they are what I am gonna go with. I am planning on putting Swain's thermal coating on the piston crowns, and combustion camber, and on the piston skirts, their anti-friction coating.
As for heads...I am choosing between these three heads
AFR 227
Dart Pro1 227
Brodix WP -10 SP X
I really like the Brodix heads.....231cc's and at .4 inches of lift already 210 cfm on exhuast!!!! I don't supposed I could over scavenge the cylinders with the turbos.....?
Well this is bascially on my own with help from my dad and cousin, who both have some nice facilities at their disposle.
Hunter
03-14-2003, 07:18 PM
#9
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: In a house by the bay
Posts: 2,985
Below $2500?
Oliver billet... sure. Carillo and LAE also make billet rods on that level. Either option and you're looking at $1200-1350. One of the biggest mistakes you could make on a motor like this is not spending enough money. So I'd just bend over and take it.
Cranks,
The Callies XS and Magnum cranks are gonna put you out of your target price @ $1700-2500 and the Racemasters are too pricey comsidering the competition.
Cola has a pro series crank that I know a couple of people are using in excess to the hp levels you're proposing. They're a little better than a grand. Lunati also builds a good crank but there are lots of choices there... I'd also check with HTH to see what they can do for you. Their prices are a little friendlier than most and I've used their stuff in some pretty stout drag-only engines without problems.
As for the stroke/destroke thing. You aren't seeing that many revs, I'd just build the 406 or 415.
Heads,
You can go with a big 23* or go with a Brodix 18x... it uses the 23* parts and can flow some really nice numbers. Don't know your budget but M2, WeldTech and Chapman all have 23* heads that are more than up to the task and I'm sure they could point you in the right direction.
-Mindgame
Oliver billet... sure. Carillo and LAE also make billet rods on that level. Either option and you're looking at $1200-1350. One of the biggest mistakes you could make on a motor like this is not spending enough money. So I'd just bend over and take it.
Cranks,
The Callies XS and Magnum cranks are gonna put you out of your target price @ $1700-2500 and the Racemasters are too pricey comsidering the competition.
Cola has a pro series crank that I know a couple of people are using in excess to the hp levels you're proposing. They're a little better than a grand. Lunati also builds a good crank but there are lots of choices there... I'd also check with HTH to see what they can do for you. Their prices are a little friendlier than most and I've used their stuff in some pretty stout drag-only engines without problems.
As for the stroke/destroke thing. You aren't seeing that many revs, I'd just build the 406 or 415.
Heads,
You can go with a big 23* or go with a Brodix 18x... it uses the 23* parts and can flow some really nice numbers. Don't know your budget but M2, WeldTech and Chapman all have 23* heads that are more than up to the task and I'm sure they could point you in the right direction.
-Mindgame
03-15-2003, 12:48 PM
#10
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Looking at my invoices, the Oliver 5.85" billets were $1,104. The Callies Stealth in 3.75" was $1,194. That was almost 3 years ago. Those are essentially the same pieces George was using in his LT1 383 at 1,125HP.
03-15-2003, 01:57 PM
#11
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I am willing to bend over and take it.... money wise.
Would the Callies Dragon Slayer crank work? Its only ~$800, which is nice. I would get it nitrided since Callies only heat treats these cranks. I am gonna do the 3.75" crank, and not rev her over 6500.
Oliver Billet Rods, ~$1200, these are what I am going to use.
Those Brodix WP -10 SP X heads flow HUGE. Their priace is HUGE too, $4000. It's either those, or the AFR 227's, which flow less, but nothing that couldn't be solved by some port work and a flowbench. What do you guys think?
What rings do you guys reccomend? I am thinkin JE would recomend some for me, but what are you opinions? I will be running a wet sump, but with a vacum pump, so case pressure will be lower than normal. Also the piston skirts will be coated in Swain's anti-friction coating.
Thanks
Hunter
money wise. Would the Callies Dragon Slayer crank work? Its only ~$800, which is nice. I would get it nitrided since Callies only heat treats these cranks. I am gonna do the 3.75" crank, and not rev her over 6500.
Oliver Billet Rods, ~$1200, these are what I am going to use.
Those Brodix WP -10 SP X heads flow HUGE. Their priace is HUGE too, $4000. It's either those, or the AFR 227's, which flow less, but nothing that couldn't be solved by some port work and a flowbench. What do you guys think?
What rings do you guys reccomend? I am thinkin JE would recomend some for me, but what are you opinions? I will be running a wet sump, but with a vacum pump, so case pressure will be lower than normal. Also the piston skirts will be coated in Swain's anti-friction coating.
Thanks
Hunter
03-15-2003, 11:57 PM
#12
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Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: from the land of Justin Wilson and Huey Long!
Posts: 173
So the Stealth Crank in the 396 version (3.875 throw) would be a bad idea (as far as engine life) b/c of increased piston speed and greater rod angle...correct?...
If so...any way to make a 396 or 402 live longer (or as long as a destroked engine or shorter throw crank)?...
If so...any way to make a 396 or 402 live longer (or as long as a destroked engine or shorter throw crank)?...
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