Alright let me preface this by saying this will be my first foray into the domestic performance world, but I'm looking for some help. I've done a decent amount of research and have done some searches at this site, but I haven't come up with much on my own so I am hoping to tap into the experience of this forum.

I have the following goals/limitations for the SBC I intend to put into a '98+ WS6.

#1. 1000+ HP (on pump gas if at all possible)
#2. Fair longevity. I would like the motor to see 20,000 miles.
#3. Reliability. I want the engine to be as bulletproof as physically (and financially) possible for that HP level. I am thinking if the engine can be built to support 1500HP and I can afford it I will do it.
#4. Streetability. This car will never see a trailer if I can help it. I intend to drive it to and from the track.
#5. Fuel Injection. I am not a carb fan.

I've got about $15,000-$20,000 for motor + fuel system + induction system. I am not an engine builder so I will have to pay someone to put it together ... but I can do the install and tuning myself.

What I need to know.

Is this feasible?

What CI should I shoot for and in what aftermarket block?

What power adder should I use? I would prefer a centrifugal over turbos ... but I am not sure if I can hit this on pump gas with anything other than turbos.

Can I sneak this under the WS6 hood? I want the car to look as stock as possible from the outside.

What considerations am I not taking into account?

 

This is not a daily driver. It will be out most weekends on the streets duringthe summer and will see a fair amount of track use.

My priorities, in order

#1. Fuel injection. It's all I know and I like doing my own tuning ... plus it will go hand in hand with the induction system.

#2. Reliability. I don't want it to break ... ever ... unless I make it break by running it too lean or putting ****ty gas in it.

#3. Longevity. It will probably see 5,000 miles a year ... and I would like to get 3-4 years out of the motor. It will see a fair amount of track use but by no means weekly track use.

#4. Money. I can probably increase the budget to $25k if need be but I am trying to save $45k for the whole project ... including car, rubber, suspension, and drivetrain (which is a bear in itself).

#5. Streetability. This is very subjective. I don't have to pass emissions and am willing to pay the occasional exhaust ticket. Since I am quite positive this will be a forced induction car I am not so worried about idle issues and whatnot.

#6. Horsepower. Last in line is the power level. If I can't hit 1000 then what can I hit and still meet my goals??

 

I should also add there is a possibility I would be willing to go BBC with this ... but the logistics of a BBC in that engine bay means I would probably have to give up a lot of other things ... I would prefer to do this with a SBC if at all possible.

 

Well for a 1000hp motor you are talking high quality parts and it's going to include a high end crankshaft, connecting rods and block. So money is your friend in this circumstance.

It's going to need a ton of boost to hit 1000hp and make it streetable in a small block, boost and RPM are what it's going to take to do something of that sort

A big block could do it easier, but's obviously going to take some work to get it in the car with the blower, plus you have a lot more custom things such as headers to get it in the car.

Why the 1000hp goal? Looking at the car in your sig it sounds like you want to have a Supra beater or something of the sort.

700-800hp might do what you need.

Are you stuck on doing this with a blower or turbo?

Bret

 

I would prefer a blower over turbos ... more out of curiosity than anything else (I have plenty of turbos already). My current cars are turbo cars ... I would like to have a blower car somewhere in there. That said ... I think a turbo car would be much easier for this since I could keep the car at low and streetable boost (meaning I might actually be able to get traction out of it) and when I want I can crank the boost and go race a motorcycle or something ... so I guess I am slowly swaying myself towards turbos. Also a blower would likely make more torque to hit the same HP which would put more strain on everything.

I have no 1/4 or trap speed goals for the car. I am thinking 9's and 140s in my head ... I won't tub it so 9's might be asking too much.

I am currently saving up for this so I am trying to guage how much (how long) I will need to save up ... that's my primary direction here.

I think 700-800 might definitely do what I need ... and if that is what I have to (it isn't worth it for me to start paying an extra $5000 / 100HP) do then so be it.

The rough idea of what I have in my mind is a 400+ CI block (motown makes 415/427/443s ... I dunno if these are appropriate for a boosted applicaton though) running 8:1 CR and 15-16 intercooled psi. I figured that would be good for no less than 800 at the flywheel and more likely 1000 ... but then again I have no refrence points when it comes to SBC's. The only motor I have any tuning experience with is my 3.0L ... granted the same rules apply.

The other thing is I am very unfamiliar with the SBC aftermarket. I am aware that it is huge (which is a big change from my itty-bitty one) and this is exactly the reason why I am going with it ... but I am somewhat lost in it all since my experience is all on the other side of the pond (imports). For instance everyone here seems to love AFR heads but I've been told by very knowledgable folks to go with the Dart heads instead ... how am I to know??

 

Oh and I realize I'm probably going to have to pay an engine builder to go over all of this ... and I realize many of the people in this forum are in fact engine builders and probably won't give too much specific advice ... which is fine. We all have a job to do. My goal here was to sort out what was feasible and what wasn't and to get some direction as to where I should keep my head ... both moneywise and technologywise.

 

Since you are going to be trying to put this under the hood of a 98+ WS6, it would only seem logical to start with the C5-R block or the 6L iron truck block. People are running over 450ci on these setups. I recently saw a claim of 1,711flywheel HP on a "444ci turbo LS1"... but I'll have to actually see that one to believe it.

Until you settle on a platform or a basic configuration, you are just spinning your wheels.

 

First of all, and this is strictly my opinion, if you want to make BIG power on a SBC, you're going to need to start with an aftermarket block, for two reasons:

1) Design and improvements and better casting consistancy.

2) Cubic inches.


I strongly suggest you give very serious consideration to starting with THIS.

That's a 454 small block chevy, it's in the $10,000 range, and it's already producing 600hp.

What you do as far as intake system is up to you, although there are a lot of options.

Here's the thing; you would be hard pressed to put together a quality piece like that for less money. It's just simply a cost effective way to go

Having said that, if you can go BBC, you probably should.

It's not really all that hard to take a big inch BBC (?500"), put a Vortech blower on it with a set of AFR 305 heads, and make 1,000hp. Takes MONEY, but not a lot of knowledge.

 

Yeah a Bowtie, Dart or World block would be the way to go.

I'm not sure if ultimate cubes are the way to go though. Cubes yes, but 454 is a bit big. Leaving a good amount of beef in the bores is going to be a good idea, and not going to far on the crank stroke so you don't have to clearance the snot of out of the block is a good idea also. Most likely you are going to use really good rods to handle 1000hp and usually they are not the smallest rods in size.

With a Centrifigal 15-20psi and good 23deg heads on a 400 cube motor you could do this kind of motor. Most of it is prep work and making sure the parts all work together.

Good thing about that 454 BM motor is that it's cheap and 600hp, if you are looking for more power like 700-800-900-1000 then a crate motor is probably NOT going to do it.

Just because I'm an engine builder doesn't mean don't like crate motors. They are great for the intened purposes. The part that gets me is the cookie cutter, billet, anyone out there can have it conformity of it. It hurts me to see Pro Street, Pro Touring, Hot Rods, Custom Bikes etc... with a crate motor. How boring. When guys like Boyd Coddington put them in a car it makes me cringe even more.

Bret

 

1 easy answer .... cubic inches.

If you are trying to make 1000hp on a small block, you will have to push it pretty hard. You can likely do it on a 383 w/ 17-20# centrifugal boost (been proven here before) if you work at it & still drive it on the street.

Will it be reliable, not exactly..... Nothing is reliable at 1000hp unless you build a very large motor. Once you go above 1.8hp/cuin on a car engine (my own guestimate, your limits may vary) you start to get into the dangerous area of either high cylinder pressure or RPM related failures.

I suggest a big block, a GM block should hold up, but if within your budget go with an aftermarket block.

There are guys making 800+hp on a 502 crate motor w/ a F2 Prochargers on pump fuel.

Similarly take a Mitchell block, 4340 crank (4-4.25"stroke) 502-540cu.in., billet rods & top shelf pistons (approx 8.5:1 comp), add good heads with a moderate cam 230's-240's @ approx .600 with aftermarket injection & put about 15# boost to it. Hold revs to 6500 & you will be there with less maintenance problems than a small block.

I would post a exact combination, but it is not together as of yet. Currently building a 502BBC w/ F2 Procharger & EFI for a street project. Just for shock value, it is going in a '90 GT Mustang. This way Ford & Chevy guys will both hate getting beat by it. Doing odds & ends as a customers budget allows, so not sure of the completion date.

 

Something else you should give consideration too is that with 1,000hp you are going to REALLY need to pour a lot of money into the rest of the car. Not just the powertrain, but the chassis/body as well. If you don't, then the first time you really hook up you are quite likely to bend the car.
I've seen MANY old cars with full frames, such as the Chevelle, with bent frames due to big HP and sticky tires.

If you just want the big HP numbers, but don't care about ET or Speed, then go for it and just don't run sticky tires.

If you want single digit 1/4 mile times, then think about the car as a system, and you'll find that it takes considerable less than 1,000hp to do it.

 

Well thanks for the information people.

First of all I want to leave drivetrain and car out of this for now. Lets just say I am not willing to tub the car (so I am limited to what ... 12" M/Ts??), I am thinking T56, I am hoping a nice solid 12 or 14 point cage will do a lot for the chassis but know it will need more ... and I will go as crazy with the suspension as need be. It will be a street car that will see some drag use. I am not expecting 9's out of it (but I will build the chassis so it will pass certification) ... not because the motor wont have it but because the chassis will lack the traction it needs and I won't be powershifting that T56.

That aside. I would love the S/C this car ... but if to reach my powerlevels I need race-gas ... then turbo is a better way for me to go since I can just turn up the boost to hit the power and turn down the boost to drive the car where I want. This is how my current car works and it is quite nice. Regardless I am still looking to stay S/C and would be willing to drop my HP goals a bit to keep a centifugal. I grew up wanting a S/C'd car someday ... what better car to put it in? (other than an old 'stang ... )

I am pretty much sold on an aftermarket 400 to start with. At this powerlevel I'd be nuts to try anything else. A crate engine is indeed nice but unless it meets all of my needs (which no crate engine I've found has) then there's no point. What I was thinking is bore the 400 and then maybe de-stroke it to keep the cubes but to reduce the stress on the crank?? I'm just throwing that out there because I'm beginning to think I will need a lot of RPMs (8000 or so) to get the HP I want out of this motor ... but again I know very little about the final implications of that. The other thing I don't know is what kind of valvetrain options do I have that will last a fair amount of time with those kind of revs? I foresee possibly building a rock-solid engine that needs the heads rebuilt every year ... ugh. I mean this is not a race car so it won't see those high revs all the time ... but it would need to be able to do them when I ask it to.

Finally I've been told my Fuel Injection options with this kind of a motor start to get limited ... as in there really isn't any aftermarket EFI system for a SBC designed for this kind of power. Basically I've been told I would need to get someone to build me something ... is this true?

Again I appreciate the information.

 

you have a few options your basically looking at some sort of system fast/speedpro, motec they have quite a few options as far as fuel management goes, you'll have to learn a speed density system, but it's not that complicated once again it comes down to $$$$ and of course, the wideband is the way to go.

of course in light of the whole project this is a rather small concear, but you do need to come up with the plan on fitting the traditional set up under the cowl/hood of a 4th gen, it either is going to involve breaking out the sawzall or the use of a couple very specific parts.

FWIW Guys are running 7-800 hp on the LSx series blocks with little to no issues, might also want to consider working with what you have

 

you have a few options your basically looking at some sort of system fast/speedpro, motec they have quite a few options as far as fuel management goes, you'll have to learn a speed density system, but it's not that complicated once again it comes down to $$$$ and of course, the wideband is the way to go.

of course in light of the whole project this is a rather small concear, but you do need to come up with the plan on fitting the traditional set up under the cowl/hood of a 4th gen, it either is going to involve breaking out the sawzall or the use of a couple very specific parts.

FWIW Guys are running 7-800 hp on the LSx series blocks with little to no issues, might also want to consider working with what you have

 

its retarded to build a motor that powerful and want to run it on pump gas. its safer and better to run race gas in it, especially since its not a daily driver.

schmidt racing 523ci BB.....878 hp n/a.....$13250
add $2600 for their fuel injection.

thats a total of $15850 + shipping, that comes fully assembled AND tuned, just drop it in. (brady_96z can help you with mounts for a BB in 4th gen)

to reach your 1000hp goal, you can ask them to fit it with a nitrous system and still be under your $20k engine budget.


shafiroff racing has a 598ci BB thats 955 hp n/a for $10995 but im not sure how much extra they would charge for fuel injection, its not listed on their site.