Well, coming from the guy who is helping with your engine you need to pay attention to these post's and stop asking every Tom and Dick about their oppinion.Oppions are fine but they are just the thoughts of THAT indivual.
There is no problem in running a 240-250 CC port on the street with EFI.That wives tale about LOW end came from OLD SCHOOL when all engines had carb's (no signal).Today with everything tuned right that problem is not there,especially with EFI.
All this leads to total confussion on your part.
The suggestion about 18* heads (used) was a cost factor and get you to the HP level you want without costing a arm and a leg.

 

Well to put this a little more into perspective, you remember Greg Smith? He built a 355 with stock crank, "pink" rods, home ported 462 casting double hump iron heads(they only flowed 256 CFM@.600), flat tappet solid cam, victor intake(home ported), 800 Holley, 1 7/8 headers, 3 inch exhaust, Forged pistons, 12 to 1 compression, T-10 4 speed, 12 bolt with a 5.36 gear in a 3rd gen Z28, shifting at 7400 RPM, running on pump gas with octane booster with 28x10 slicks...it ran 11.20@121 mph...I drove this car around on airport blvd, yes it was streetable....we drove it 60 miles round trip on the interstate to a car show. Now reading the above most people would think there is NO way you could tool this car around on the street, but I did more than a few nights. Radical combos can be streetable. But because his heads were small, he had to have a big cam and shift it at moderately high rpms and gear it accordingly, with a bigger head and the cam profiles we have today you get more air in and make good power at 7000 or so RPM...BTW with the parts we specified with your engine going into the high 7000 RPM range will not be a problem if needed. I have seen many a small bolck Chevy go 7000 RPM regularly with a stock crank, if balanced correctly.


David

 

Uh yeah, I'm running a carb.

 

You told us you were wanting EFI, 1Racerdude is Dad, just so you know. Let us know what you want to do....




David

 

Yep, I figured that out and edited my post.

I'm just passing time guys, don't get offended... Living in Aruba and driving this POS Toyota truck is definitely got me craving horsepower when I come back....

I'm just inquiring and getting some ideas...that's all.

 

David, using Greg's car as a great example... I'm POSITIVE that we can put a 1st gen in the 10s all motor on 93 octane, aren't you?

Do we REALLY need 18* heads or some fancy EFI setup???

Remember Johnny Wilkinson's blue 67? That car WAS a flat top 355 with 300hp heads. It ran 10.4s on the motor and 9.7s on the gas.... Not too bad....

SO, I'm sure we can run close to those times with more cubes (383) more head, more cam, etc...

Right???

 

The blue 67 was light, around 3000# with driver if I remember, and setup soley for strip duty, as was Gregs car. We have pretty much talked about what we need, 320 CFM is the bare minimum we need to make what you want. Dont confuse yourself, all the builders on this board go different avenues to build power.


David

 

Okay, I'll keep focused.... Thanks for your help Dave. Tell you Dad I said hello.

 

It doesn't matter WHAT you put on top with todays carb's you can run a big cam(yours would be smaller with 18*) and big ports and STILL have the street manners.
It ain't going to be something you would put your wife into to drive,but would be plenty streetable.Your wife would put it in the ditch with 500+RWHP and That is what I told you I could do N/A.I am also taking your BUDGET into consideration.
You need to listen to the people who know what it takes i.e. this board or your friendly engine builder.There is a lot of knowledge in this world but the good stuff is not always free.You can get led down the wrong road and wind up with something that cost a ton of money and don't run.
Look at mindgame's post,he has been there done that.I agree big inches are boss but you are talking a $2500.00+ block alone and 23* heads WILL NOT feed it above 5500 so why have a stump puller that won't get out of the hole with less than 15x33's and you can't gear it to run the number.
You can make 23* heads do the job but it cost's an arm and a leg--ask me how I know--.and "they"ARE exotic.

 

I'm gonna state my opinion and its free to take or leave....

You can build the power you're after with a 23º head easily enough. There are a number of guys on this board running in the 9's and making probably 600+ hp on 23º. I can name you numerous examples of large small blocks running 23º and making close to 700 hp on just the other side of 7000 rpm. There are heads out there that will fit the bill... Dart 227's, AFR 227's, Brodix's Track 1X, The Jones/Brodix -10 from WeldTech, Edelbrock Victors... it's a long list. Point is, I've seen all of these heads make the power you're after then some.

If you can find a deal on some 18º, then I'd go that route but I'd base my decision on what I could get for the least amount of $$. So shop around.

-Mindgame

 

David,

I would like the dyno sheet of that 500 RWHP 346 inch car! I have seen a lot of LS1s and done even more of them than anyone on this board probably or at least posting and I sure haven't seen that yet! You can easily build something like that as a race engine but not any real pump gas engine with manners. It also wouldn't make this under 6500 and also doesn't have any 230 duration cam!

I'm talking reality here not all out race engines. I have been part of the fastest LS1 stuff in the country and I'm talking 600+ RWHP stuff that runs low nines. There's a lot of tricks you can employ to get crazy numbers but I could easily get 500 RWHP even with stock ls6 heads with the right cam if I didn't care about anything else. Our first head cam car almost 5 years ago made around 460 at the wheels but again it was at higher rpm.

It takes a big engine to lower power range. You cannot do that with a small engine. It's just physics. You can have a damn good running 346 though but some people wouldn't be happy with the high strung nature of a big cammed high rpm engine like that.

 

First... to run low 9s you will need a tad more than 600... maybe something like 800rwhp or so...

Check out cartek.net

they did 503rwhp out of a 346 and pump gas. Granted... electrical water pump.... They have been doing 10s consistently.

 

Highlander,

You're used to over corrected blower numbers. Our NMCA car that ran mid nines at 3600 pounds only had 650 RWHP. At more like 800 RWHP later with much better heads and rules in another class we were going 8.80s at 155 on motor and we won the NA class championship of the Clash of the Titans and then they promptly canned that class because of us. We also had the ET and MPH records for the Clash of the Titans NA.

Do you have the dyno sheet of this Cartek car? I know we've smoked everyone that ever showed up at the races we've been at. The last one was where us and Douberly were in the finals, both with our motors running nines in the heat while all these other mythical tuner cars were running mid and high tens the same day?

All I'm saying is that there are not many LS1s at 346 inches PERIOD making 500+ RWHP, if any, with any real exhaust or accesories on them or they'd sure as hell have to be a lot faster than they seem to be. David Douberlie's car made 556 and went 9.60s at 140+ MPH right out in front of everyone.

I don't ever try to fool people into thinking they can do what they can't and I also don't usually pass on BS if I can help it. Just trying to keep things clear about what it takes to make that kind of power in a streetable manner and with stock cubes it isn't easy or nice anymore. I have no doubt at all that these guys have made those numbers or at least close to them but just not in a nice way or at low rpm at all.

 

No i do not have the dyno chart... yet... i have to search for it on the forums...

The other thing is.. yes I am used to maybe overcorrected boosted applications... but still, from what I've seen to be able to do 9.6@140MPH with just 556rwhp means that the car is pretty light or perfectly optimized... the mph is there!!! or the tranny was so perfectly matched etc... I am more accostumed to street cars and not 1/4 mile cars.. when you get to the point of race car you tend to maximize the setup for just the 1/4 mile that there are some things that are not comparable...

I've seen a few videos of those H/C packages and I've been impressed, really impressed.. at the first time i didn't believe it, but on the forum people are posting the times..

You did low 9s with what mph?? 150+? or a 9.2@145 with an awesome launch??? There isa big difference in mph and the HP and mph go hand in hand.. htere is a huge jump from 140-150mph range... so... it would be interesting to see...

Dont get me wrong.... I acknowledge your accomplishments and they are in no doubt by all these comments, but class racing is not the same thing as "street" cars racing in a track... Cars are not really OPTIMIZED to run JUST a 1/4 mile regarding tranny rear differential and others components that maximize your time and effort for just a 1/4 mile blast... or do you guys race with rules that the car has to have certein fuel efficiency or economy etc?

But you are right about one thing.. There are not many ls1 cars in the 500rwhp range.. period.. only 2 or 3 with stock cubes and n/a... but the thing of all this is that with a 383 is more than achievable n/a provided you buy the correct heads... can my engine get to the 500rwhp mark? NO!why? not optimized for it.. but if I had a 383 built to rev and rev it with a good POSSIBLE set of heads.. 500rwhp are NOT that difficult... They are achievable... I still bet that after the porting and such my car can do 450rwhp with 8.8:1 CR N/A.

My point was.. if there are ls1s doing it with 15º heads why not LT1s with the similar configurations and more cubes? as mindgame did it and he went well past 500rwhp.

One other thing.. that cartek people are doing it below the 7krpm mark... I think its possible...

Anyways.. I dont want to start a pissing contest here.. its just what I have seen and I what I expect once the Z06 has its h/c package... Ambient temps have a lot to do with the power they are making and they are probably doing it uncorrected numbers.. so yes there are tricks there.. but right now they are top notch.. and I've been impressed, at first I said but now im beginning to believe as i have seen more and more each time...

500rwhp out of those H/c only on stock cubes has BEEN HARD and it will probably be done in 1/6 cars they do from now on... but still... i like what i see.. anyways.. FWIW.. 470rwhp on stock cubes out of a z06 is good enough to get you into the 10.9x@128mph.

 

Shows how out of touch I am with what's going on in ls1-ville. Either way, I think 500rw is certainly attainable but I'm also thinking you'd need to see the other side of 7000rpm to do it. Gonna be a nasty little motor for sure. I guess that would still be "streetable" in some minds though. Then again... lots of crazy gearheads out there.

Erik,
I recall from another thread you mentioned something about working at SAM? In that case, are you by chance referring to Massengil's car? I hadn't heard much about it since it was a high 9 second car! I'm curious to know if you guys achieving that with the composite intake manifold or did you do something else there. I remember reading about the modifications done to the intake and it sounded as though there was alot of time spent there. Just wondering if it eventually found the trash can.

As far as hp goes, just about anything is possible. Its just always more streetable with big ci motors. I've personally done it both ways and with the BMR k-member (gen1 swap... talking 4th gens here) and the options available to a gen1 421+ ci small block, it's a no brainer to me which way I'd go if 600+ hp (NA) was my goal. I'd even opt for a well prepared 400 block if my budget were too tight for aftermarket. We were pushing those blocks hard well before the aftermarket provided a better alternative.

-Mindgame