Explain the 500 RWHP 346 cube LS1 with a 230/240 @.050 cam in it shifting at( or most of them) under 7000 rpm? Thats damn near 600 flywheel HP on pump gas out of 346 cubes. Granted they have 15* heads, but flow is flow. I would guess around the 320CFM mark @.650.....with cylinder head and cam technology we have today the old saying of cubes or rpm doesn't always apply to make power. IMO


David

 

Now you are getting into a totally different engine. It's similar, but way different than a Gen 1 SBC.

 

Can't speak for Eric and don't need to but my setup is not near as "new and high-tech" as the LS stuff but my power is right in line with what the best of the LS1/LS6 engines are doing.

Granted, in comparison I'm up 37 ci on the 500rwhp LS1's but I'm also putting ~70 more hp to the rear wheels and with very similar levels of streetability. I attribute this to the cylinder head. The LT block, although not as good as an aftermarket casting, is plenty capable. We should all know that by now.

The point Eric is making is that for any given power peak.... lets say 6500 rpm, the bigger motor (if put together right) is going to have you beat every time. Not only will it make more hp but you will have more tq at each shift point to accelerate the car. Not to mention, the motor will likely be much more streetable.

This being a 1st gen camaro, the motor-swap possibilities are endless. LS1, LT1, BBC, big SBC, the only limitation is the pocketbook.
Fickle, you're going to need to carefully budget this project. You can get the power any way you want... some ways are just going to be alot more expensive than others. A carbed BIG BBC is probably the cheapest route to hp per $ (NA). So do your homework.

-Mindgame

 

Mindgame.. How much money where your heads and how much did they flow?

 

Highlander,

Don't know how familiar you are with GM race heads? A price is hard to give because people don't usually buy them as a ready-to-run type deal like an AFR 195 etc. The heads are usually bought bare and then purpose built. The castings when I bought them were ~$1000 for the set, then they got titanium valves, beryllium copper seats, alot of porting etc because they were going into a full-race car. I've used them in quite a few different configurations so they've vacuumed quite a bit of $$ out of me over the years. If you buy a CNC set from M2, WeldTech, Chapman then you are looking at $3500 or better. So "it all depends".

Now figure this. You can buy used as well as untouched race heads all the time on ebay. Racers in every genre whether it be RC racing or Drag are always going with "the latest and greatest" thing. So for the guy who doesn't necessarily need to compete on that level, there are deals to be found! I already owned this set, so the initaial cost was out the window. I then needed a conversion and other modifications, but that was completed on a barter arrangement. I can't really give you a ballpark price sorry.

To put something together, you just have to shop around and have enough knowledge to buy the right parts the first time. Either that or get with someone who does.

Peak flow was in the ~340 cfm range.

Good luck!

-Mindgame

 

I remember the post about your heads... 18º milled to 16º and heads canted 1º? I think it was that way...

I went with a set of afr 210s heads race ready that I sent to phil@ai.

340cfms would have been worth the $ probably even for forced induction.

I hope i can get around 300-310cfms out of mine in the 600" range... so... We'll just have to see...

what I find very interesting is that you use very very big intake valves... no shrouding there??? I think then that my 2.08 are not that big.

 

Using that much head won't I have to turn the motor way up to make the 500whp goal? That hp number is just a goal. I don't want to sacrifice low end just to meet one number. It's all about area under the curve.

 

Depends on what you consider"way up", LS1 guys are doing it under 7000 RPM with 346 inches. Gotta think 320 CFM head is alot of head on a 346 inch engine. There are other factors that determine the peak and average HP numbers of an engine, heads are only a part of it.


David

 

With that kind of head and a 383 you might be able to achieve it at 6400rpm which is really ok and doable...

 

What do you think about the Dart Pro 1 227cc CNC heads? I was looking at a port matched Dart intake too....

I don't mind going with your recommended 18* setup, but I don't want anything exotic that's going to cost a lot more or have reliability problems... IF we can get the power from a 23* setup, that's what I want to do...

 

Well I don't consider 18* stuff exotic, I think there are 11* degree heads now thats exotic, if you have to buy and intake, rockers, etc for an engine go ahead and buy what you need for the 18* setup. 18* stuff is not really considered exotic, it has been out for a while now, lots of companies make parts for the setup. Headers may be the only hitch in that setup as far as over the counter parts. Brodix make a set of 18* heads that will accept conventional small block rockers and headers,18 x I think.

See here:
http://www.brodix.com/onlinecatalog/...page23-24.html

As far as durability goes on 18* stuff, no concerns there either... why would there be?

Most 18* stuff will outflow a WELL ported 23* setup out of the box. It is VERY hard to get a 23* head to flow over 320/330 CFM.

BTW here is the deal of the century

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showt...hreadid=258566


David

 

those 18x heads are 250cc runners... that is quite big.. and in those sbc2.2 they are 290cc runners.. difinetely not street material...

on a 383 i dont want to do more than 220 to keep it every day...

 

The 15º heads deshroud the valve by opening it more towards the bore centerline than a 23º head. That's why you can run a larger valve in them on the smaller bores.

Gotta also keep in mind that the SB2.2 has a longer port than the typical 23º head so the volume is not a good comparison at first glance. The heads in the 230-240 range aren't necessarily going to be "too big" for high-hp 383-396 engines. It just depends on the goal. You also have to keep in mind that the volume isn't telling you everything. What about the minimum cross section area of the port? Volume tells us nothing of that and you can take two identical (volume-wise) heads with very different cross section ares and they are like two different animals. One better suited to one duty and the other best left to another. It's just not so simple.

Back to the big small-blocks (421+ ci) these heads are right at home, making power in the lower revs.

And Fickle brings up "area under the curve". Which has to be one of the most overused terms on a message board. Everyone thinks that having tons of torque right off idle and through the low revs (2000-3000) is where it's at with street cars. But how many of you do your real pedal stomping off idle and in that rev range?
Not I. When I want to get on it, I'm only concerned with the power from ~4 grand up to my 7k shift point. I only need downshift to put it in the sweet spot. If you're running an M6, check out your rpm drops at each shift the next time you run it to the limiter. Now ask yourself why you need stump pulling torque at 2500 rpm.

-Mindgame

 

Fickle,

The Dart 227's are nice heads. We've been throwing around kinds of stuff in this thread. What engine are you thinking to run them on? Small small-block or big-one??

Either way, with the right parts, the 227's should make more than enough for what you're after. Easily.

-Mindgame

 

I planned to build a 383...

My goal is 500whp on pump gas. This should be possible with 23* parts right?

David, I don't mind looking at the 18* stuff but $2,200 for a set of bare brodix 18x's is a little outrageous. And, is it REALLY necessary.

I am one to do a TON of research before I spend lots of money on something. And I just can't see why the 18* stuff is really needed.... I mean, I don't want a motor that needs a 4500 stall just to work right and from the looks of some of these heads I may be going down that path.... Just my .02.