Howards powder metal rods, stronger than 4340
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,985
From: In a house by the bay
Howards powder metal rods, stronger than 4340
AISI 4340 vs GKN P/F 4260
UTS (MPA)
1470 vs 1620
YS (MPA)
1365 vs 1450
Elongation (%)
10 vs 7
Interesting article on the Howards powder metal rods here
http://www.circletrack.com/techartic...owder_forging/
They're saying the SBC rods should be in the 500-600gm range. Their "Mid" (~650 hp range recommended) weight forged rod for instance is 595gm and is a very nice rod by the way. Would be really nice if these 6.0" 4260 rods fall in at ~550gms or less.
Thought I'd pass along the info for those techies who like this stuff.
-Mindgame
UTS (MPA)
1470 vs 1620
YS (MPA)
1365 vs 1450
Elongation (%)
10 vs 7
Interesting article on the Howards powder metal rods here
http://www.circletrack.com/techartic...owder_forging/
They're saying the SBC rods should be in the 500-600gm range. Their "Mid" (~650 hp range recommended) weight forged rod for instance is 595gm and is a very nice rod by the way. Would be really nice if these 6.0" 4260 rods fall in at ~550gms or less.
Thought I'd pass along the info for those techies who like this stuff.
-Mindgame
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 766
From: GARDNERS,PA
Elongation (%)
Thanks for the info
Steve
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,985
From: In a house by the bay
Well Steve I'm happy to see that at least one person enjoyed the article.
I don't know just how important ductility is to a connecting rod.... how much deformation will it take before it says I give up...... but I'm in agreement. From what I've read, the porosity can be improved through "resintering" but probably isn't going to be as good as your typical forging. The technology is fascinating though and this stuff is just going to get better with time.
-Mindgame
I don't know just how important ductility is to a connecting rod.... how much deformation will it take before it says I give up...... but I'm in agreement. From what I've read, the porosity can be improved through "resintering" but probably isn't going to be as good as your typical forging. The technology is fascinating though and this stuff is just going to get better with time.
-Mindgame
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,743
From: Baton Rouge, LA, USA
Powdered metal is a low-cost method of producing parts. By design, the finished part is porous, so it can not have as good of properties as the parent metal did.
We used this method at Poulan Chainsaws to fabricate crankshaft counterweights, but only on the cheap models. The expensive lines had forged counterweights.
Mike
We used this method at Poulan Chainsaws to fabricate crankshaft counterweights, but only on the cheap models. The expensive lines had forged counterweights.
Mike
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 451
From: Bradenton Fl
Some aftermarket companies supply 5 gear planataries for the 4l60e made from powdered metal,I have been told its better to stick with the factory 4 gear than to use the powdered metal as they have been having problems with them breaking. On the other hand gm now produces forged 5 gear planataries that have performed flawlessly.
Banned
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,661
From: LA (lower Alabama)
Mindgame,
I am like you--I will let the rest experement with them--I can't justify in my mine that they are stronger than "pink" rods which I
used for years with no problem.This new metal stuff one day will be the norm but---
I am like you--I will let the rest experement with them--I can't justify in my mine that they are stronger than "pink" rods which I
used for years with no problem.This new metal stuff one day will be the norm but---
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,931
From: Upstate NY
Interesting info, MG. Read it soon after you posted.
Powdered metal technology has come a long way. As mentioned, they don't quite get the same desnsity as forged or rolled ("billet") steel, but they are close. Of course PM doesn't have the possible inclusions or voids which sometimes occur in forgings or non-aircraft quality alloy steel which means more consistent rods.
At 130,000 rods a day, the company is obviously an OEM producer. That's about the only way they could afford the capital investment to do aftermarket rods.
Would I put them a high-dollar engine for my own use? Maybe not yet. Would I use them in a circle-track engine class that specified "stock-type" rods or prohibited fully machined H or I-beams. I probably would.
Thanks for the heads up, MG.
Powdered metal technology has come a long way. As mentioned, they don't quite get the same desnsity as forged or rolled ("billet") steel, but they are close. Of course PM doesn't have the possible inclusions or voids which sometimes occur in forgings or non-aircraft quality alloy steel which means more consistent rods.
At 130,000 rods a day, the company is obviously an OEM producer. That's about the only way they could afford the capital investment to do aftermarket rods.
Would I put them a high-dollar engine for my own use? Maybe not yet. Would I use them in a circle-track engine class that specified "stock-type" rods or prohibited fully machined H or I-beams. I probably would.
Thanks for the heads up, MG.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,985
From: In a house by the bay
<~~Skeptical too
Yeah, now I wouldn't be too surprised to see them turn up in those motors. Might give us some indication on the durability once they've put a few cycles on them. Who knows....
Just surprised to see a PM rod turn up as a performance aftermarket product marketed as a "stronger" 4340 rod alternative.
-Mindgame
circle-track engine class that specified "stock-type" rods or prohibited fully machined H or I-beams
Just surprised to see a PM rod turn up as a performance aftermarket product marketed as a "stronger" 4340 rod alternative.
-Mindgame
Banned
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 6,518
The best way to compare this is to look at the full metal performance comparison chart.
http://www.circletrack.com/circletra...7_pow_14_z.jpg
All the connecting rods were normally see here are represented.
AISI 1141 (GM PINK ROD)
GKN P/F 11C60 (OEM LS1 ROD)
AISI 4340 (EAGLE H, SCAT I, or OLIVER BILLET)
GKN P/F 4260 (HOWARD'S PPF)
Comparing the best old school OEM rod the pink rod vs. a PM LS1 or LT1 rod shows that the Yield Strength is about 67% higher on the PM rod. No wonder the weak part of most LS1 bottom ends is the rod bolts, not the rod or the crank. The only LS1 stock bottom failures you ever see or hear about are burning a hole in the piston or having a rod bolt fail. If you throw some ARP's in there and never run it lean or have too much timing then that bottom end should take one hell of a beating.
67% better YS shows how far OEM's have come, who cares that the elongation is 5% lower, you have all that extra YS before you even have to worry about the elongation coming into effect.
Now 4340 vs. the 4260 shows a YS improvement, it's small at 6.3% but it still gives the metal farther to go. Now when you go thru the steps that a place like Eagle does with the H beams, forging, full machining and shot peaning you end up with a rod that has to be X-Rayed still since it's forged, where you might get 3 out of 1000 forgings as scrap and have a less consistent and likely a more impure material. Then look at the PPF rod, the material is much more consistent, scrap rate is probably less than 1 every 1000 (more likely 0 out of 1000) the machine time to fully machine the rod is much less since the rods are able to be made closer to the final shape and the material has almost no impurities in it.
One of JB's points "Of course PM doesn't have the possible inclusions or voids which sometimes occur in forgings or non-aircraft quality alloy steel which means more consistent rods."
As for Ductility the stiffer rod is going to be less ductile, that's part of the game. Probably a great rod for NA motors, stepping up to blowers, then to N2O and then Nitro is not something I would do. The 4340 is 40+% more ductile, (10% vs. 7% elongation) but then again drag N2O motors and top fuel motors are running a Al rod, which is more like 20-25% elongation (2-2.5 times more ductile) so then again how good is 4340 for the same deal?
Larry,
"I can't justify in my mind that they are stronger than "pink" rods which I used for years with no problem."
First from what I have seen in most circle track motors in some of the cheaper classes that use "pink rods" there is at least a 15% gain in HP and also higher RPM over the last 4 years. As you can tell by the motor you are building for David that motors and HP levels have come a LONG way in the last 10-15 years. Pink Rods are just not going to cut it anymore at the RPM and HP levels that we are at.
To compare an old school PINK ROD to a PPF rod is not even a contest, one reason why I tell about anyone "Don't play with stock rods, sell them or throw them out and buy some Scat I beams." The Scat's cost less than the machine and balancing work a stock rod needs and you start out with a material that has a 3.5 times greater YS. A PPF setup is about 4+ times better than a stock PINK ROD.
One more thing, something that almost EVERY old hat I have talked to about motors likes. MADE IN AMERICA.
Rich, I'm surprised that you are not a bigger fan of these things.
A comparable 4340 Forged Rod that is about equal in quoted strength (HP) would be a Manley H beam. They weight in at 705g's and still cost $600 a set.
While the Howard's PPF rod "The target weight of the small-block Chevy rods is between 500 and 600 grams, and the approximate horsepower range is between 700 and 800."
So I can drop 100+g's and keep my business in the USA for the same price vs. going to a Eagle rod that costs less and still weighs more than the Howard's rod.
Now yeah, I haven't seen these things go two seasons in a 650hp DIRT car. Seeing them do that would make anyone feel better, but then again maybe being young and looking at new technology and diving right in is part of being young. About a year ago I started with beehive springs on a SBC/LT1 motor, researched it, figured out why it was better and how to use it and jumped right in. Works great!
The other thing that is really impressive about the design on the PPF rods is the Finite Element Analysis. Only rods that I know of that have this are $1200 Oliver Billets. One reason why the rods are so strong for the mass is the design. I’ve seen some studies on H beams vs. I beams like Oliver’s and the shape is one reason they are so dam good. The other design point of the PPF rods is the cracked cap setup. No need for dowels to line up the caps, there is going to be EXTREMELY good cap to rod contact with the cracked cap design with no cap walk. Almost wish you could make main caps this way.
Well that’s my little rant. I think they are good rods, and a great idea that was executed very well. Problem is customer acceptance.
Bret
http://www.circletrack.com/circletra...7_pow_14_z.jpg
All the connecting rods were normally see here are represented.
AISI 1141 (GM PINK ROD)
GKN P/F 11C60 (OEM LS1 ROD)
AISI 4340 (EAGLE H, SCAT I, or OLIVER BILLET)
GKN P/F 4260 (HOWARD'S PPF)
Comparing the best old school OEM rod the pink rod vs. a PM LS1 or LT1 rod shows that the Yield Strength is about 67% higher on the PM rod. No wonder the weak part of most LS1 bottom ends is the rod bolts, not the rod or the crank. The only LS1 stock bottom failures you ever see or hear about are burning a hole in the piston or having a rod bolt fail. If you throw some ARP's in there and never run it lean or have too much timing then that bottom end should take one hell of a beating.
67% better YS shows how far OEM's have come, who cares that the elongation is 5% lower, you have all that extra YS before you even have to worry about the elongation coming into effect.
Now 4340 vs. the 4260 shows a YS improvement, it's small at 6.3% but it still gives the metal farther to go. Now when you go thru the steps that a place like Eagle does with the H beams, forging, full machining and shot peaning you end up with a rod that has to be X-Rayed still since it's forged, where you might get 3 out of 1000 forgings as scrap and have a less consistent and likely a more impure material. Then look at the PPF rod, the material is much more consistent, scrap rate is probably less than 1 every 1000 (more likely 0 out of 1000) the machine time to fully machine the rod is much less since the rods are able to be made closer to the final shape and the material has almost no impurities in it.
One of JB's points "Of course PM doesn't have the possible inclusions or voids which sometimes occur in forgings or non-aircraft quality alloy steel which means more consistent rods."
As for Ductility the stiffer rod is going to be less ductile, that's part of the game. Probably a great rod for NA motors, stepping up to blowers, then to N2O and then Nitro is not something I would do. The 4340 is 40+% more ductile, (10% vs. 7% elongation) but then again drag N2O motors and top fuel motors are running a Al rod, which is more like 20-25% elongation (2-2.5 times more ductile) so then again how good is 4340 for the same deal?
Larry,
"I can't justify in my mind that they are stronger than "pink" rods which I used for years with no problem."
First from what I have seen in most circle track motors in some of the cheaper classes that use "pink rods" there is at least a 15% gain in HP and also higher RPM over the last 4 years. As you can tell by the motor you are building for David that motors and HP levels have come a LONG way in the last 10-15 years. Pink Rods are just not going to cut it anymore at the RPM and HP levels that we are at.
To compare an old school PINK ROD to a PPF rod is not even a contest, one reason why I tell about anyone "Don't play with stock rods, sell them or throw them out and buy some Scat I beams." The Scat's cost less than the machine and balancing work a stock rod needs and you start out with a material that has a 3.5 times greater YS. A PPF setup is about 4+ times better than a stock PINK ROD.
One more thing, something that almost EVERY old hat I have talked to about motors likes. MADE IN AMERICA.
Rich, I'm surprised that you are not a bigger fan of these things.
A comparable 4340 Forged Rod that is about equal in quoted strength (HP) would be a Manley H beam. They weight in at 705g's and still cost $600 a set.
While the Howard's PPF rod "The target weight of the small-block Chevy rods is between 500 and 600 grams, and the approximate horsepower range is between 700 and 800."
So I can drop 100+g's and keep my business in the USA for the same price vs. going to a Eagle rod that costs less and still weighs more than the Howard's rod.
Now yeah, I haven't seen these things go two seasons in a 650hp DIRT car. Seeing them do that would make anyone feel better, but then again maybe being young and looking at new technology and diving right in is part of being young. About a year ago I started with beehive springs on a SBC/LT1 motor, researched it, figured out why it was better and how to use it and jumped right in. Works great!
The other thing that is really impressive about the design on the PPF rods is the Finite Element Analysis. Only rods that I know of that have this are $1200 Oliver Billets. One reason why the rods are so strong for the mass is the design. I’ve seen some studies on H beams vs. I beams like Oliver’s and the shape is one reason they are so dam good. The other design point of the PPF rods is the cracked cap setup. No need for dowels to line up the caps, there is going to be EXTREMELY good cap to rod contact with the cracked cap design with no cap walk. Almost wish you could make main caps this way.
Well that’s my little rant. I think they are good rods, and a great idea that was executed very well. Problem is customer acceptance.
Bret
Banned
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,661
From: LA (lower Alabama)
Well I am hard headed--show me--I ran a 375HP 327 comp GM short block with machine work for 3YRs until the .060 over bore just would not hold rings.Thats ALL the same parts(TRW pistons) 5 night's a week In Penn and MD on dirt and don't know the RPM's but it turned so many the exhaust would get quiet at the end of the shoot,then come back into hearing range when you let off to set her sideways YEE HAA God I miss it.
I am not saying the pink rods are the best out there-(Not using them in this build)I'm saying they are damn good.Pushed together powder just doesn't SEEM correct for strength.
We were making right at 600HP with that engine on alchol and the Hilborns.And that was '69-'73.
Thats what I am guaging the pink rods from.
I am not saying the pink rods are the best out there-(Not using them in this build)I'm saying they are damn good.Pushed together powder just doesn't SEEM correct for strength.
We were making right at 600HP with that engine on alchol and the Hilborns.And that was '69-'73.
Thats what I am guaging the pink rods from.
Last edited by 1racerdude; Jun 29, 2004 at 10:42 PM.
Banned
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 6,518
Doc,
You would love the guy across from the shop. Building a 496 BBC with a Callies crank and Iron GM heads. Ughhh. I would have done some AFR's and a 502 block with a cheap Scat 9000 stroker crank to get a 540, but that's just me!!
All of that just because it's AMERICAN. I understand that, but not 2 times the price worth when you will never break the cheap communist one.
Bret
You would love the guy across from the shop. Building a 496 BBC with a Callies crank and Iron GM heads. Ughhh. I would have done some AFR's and a 502 block with a cheap Scat 9000 stroker crank to get a 540, but that's just me!!
All of that just because it's AMERICAN. I understand that, but not 2 times the price worth when you will never break the cheap communist one.
Bret
Banned
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 6,518
Originally posted by 1racerdude
We were making right at 600HP with that engine on alchol and the Hilborns.Thats what I am guaging the pink rods from.
We were making right at 600HP with that engine on alchol and the Hilborns.Thats what I am guaging the pink rods from.
That's what I see when you guys talk like that.
Bret
Banned
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,661
From: LA (lower Alabama)
I know,back then there wasn't much better--We also had 3/8 rod bolt's installed and that was pretty much as good as it got.After the 327 we got a comp 350 did the same things to it and it lasted 2 years,until we went with an alum block,Then it started to get expensive.Dry sump,front drives and such.Wish I had the money to still be doing it--BUTTTT.