I can't go into much (detail wise) of our practice as far as honing goes. What I can say is this....
Yes there is a benefit to boring/honing with at temp/coolant flowing through the cylinder block. To do this right, you need a special "dummy" cylinder head in place of the conventional torque plate. Then the block is bored and honed, preferably diamond honed/plateau finished, #280 to #600 then finish brushed to a finish of RA 10 or better. With this practice we've achieved bore concentricty in the .0001-.0003 range, bore straightness relative to the deck, .0002-.0004.
Boring the block at temperature is simply a matter of expansion, much of which can be computer simulated. Ultimately, getting the correct bore diameter at room temp (77ºF) is a matter of R&D. Once you have the process down for a particular casting, it's just a matter of duplication.

The other important issue is in increasing the RKV (valley depth) value as this plays a vital role in oil retention. On our competition engines, we use a process known as laser structuring. Basically what happens in LS is the laser burns a pattern into the top half of the cylinder bore. The "cuts" are approximately 50 microns deep and 40 microns wide. The results of which we've seen upwards of a 20% decrease in oil consumption and approximately 30% longer ring life. A big concern for high output endurance applications.

Take care,
Chuck Riddeck
Progressive Race Engine Development

 

Thanks for the info, Chuck. The LS is new to me, but my first reaction was "Of course!" We have parts selectively hardened with a laser scanner, so why not cut with it. I particularly like that you can select the area of the bore to "groove".

Being less sophisticated we use honing stones and shoot for Ra of 11-14 and Rz in the 150-200 range with the rings we use. After your LS burn, have you taken an Rz reading? I'd love to know how it compares.

Your bore squareness-to-deck is most impressive. Using a CMM?

(Maybe Fred will leave this thread here.)

Thanks again,

Jon

 

Thanks to your (and Chuck's) responses, this is finally getting interesting. My point is not about the responses.... my point is that a very basic question.... and to me this seemed like a relatively basic question.... isn't something that belongs here. Actually it doesn't belong anywhere.

My recommendation is to read a book if you need the basics...... then come here on the part you don't understand or need more details on. I think there is a little of the same content in the question about "heads making compression"..... which seemed to indicate that the person who asked the question needed a quick intro to the basics.... i.e. what it the equation for static compression ratio?

It all kind of subjective, but I always like to see someone do a little work on their own up front...... .

 

i do admitt that i have never known about the torque plates and the laser structuring honing, are there any books that you can recomend (library won't let me check out the big chiltons books not that they would have this any way)

 

Very interesting!
Yeah, boring and honing is basic... but the way this has turned I can see it being a little more "advanced" than I originally thought. Seems to be quite a bit of debate between engine builders on the subject too.
Jon, Chuck, thanks for your time.

-Mindgame

 

Talk about having a basic problem turn up some good info.

If anyone has not figured it out yet Old Stroker and I are related. It's a good thing because we get to bounce ideascoming from different areas off each other. Right now learning what the finish is on the bores chuck is talking about is interesting. I am really more interested in power output, but something like this will allow power output to be higher for a longer period of time. If a engine eats more oil oh well, it it lives a long time and makes power that is a trade off I will take anyday!

Thanks for the info,

Bret

BTW.... watch the last NASCAR race of the year, we get a few months of boredome off so take advantage of it.

 

The only time I thought honing was a "basic" operation was when I knew nothing about it. honing is definately a "Advanced Tech" topic. See above. And one guy even said I can't go into detail??? One can only imagine what secrets and not being told.

 

Here's a fairly good read on cylinder block honing. It's a .pdf file, and uses metric terms, but the info is good.

http://www.msi-motor-service.de/down...n/honen_en.pdf

Here's one on laser structuring:

http://www.manufacturingcenter.com/t.../0102laser.asp

 

all of a sudden i really like honing

 

Only time I thought honing was a "basic" operation was when I didn't have to do it myself.

On the subject of "secrets", is there really any such thing with the internet, lol. I mean, up til yesterday, I'd never even heard of what Chuck was referring to as "laser structuring"... and there it is, an article on the subject.
Do you guys pray, thanking some higher power for ARPANET, TCP/IP and HTML? Well ya should damnit!

-Mindgame

 

does the arpanet still exist (i thought it was the 1st internet)

 

Sorry to get off on a tangent from the original subject but....

The US Department of Defense's Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA, later named DARPA) came into being during the early 60's. The WAN developed by ARPA was called the ARPANET. It was the backbone infrastructure of the internet but not anymore. The current backbone infrastructure carries a volume of well over 45 megabits per second, about 1000 times the bandwidth of the grandfather, ARPANET.
Contrary to what Mr. Gore says, the WWW was invented by CERN, a european physics labarotory.... the same guys who brought you the hypertext markup language.

Enough of that crap, let's talk honing!

-Mindgame

 

Good stuff!

Thanks!

 

Ditto from here in the Geat White North (it's frakin' snowing out there!!).

I passed "Honing 101" years ago, but never went any further. Back then, it was considered tres chic to use a torque plate! Now I learn about this hot honing, laser honing, etc. My question is: what is the magnitude of the gains from these sophisticated techniques? Is it in the realm of a few hp (as I suspect), which would make it useful for NASCAR or other pro racing decided by inches, or is it on the order of magnitude that folks like us who are into amatuer competition/fast street driving might consider it?

It's interesting in any case.

Rich Krause

 

I would guess that we can get more use from knowing a good surface finish that works well with certain rings more than anything. Hot honeing is something Smokey a long time ago, if you can do it well I'm sure that it makes the cylinder closer to round at operating temps which has to help seal. The laser etching is a really good durability mod but for most of us doing it practially is not going to happen.

Either way it's cool to see that stuff.

Bret