I was at a local speed shop and saw a Dart Little M block for sale for either $1800 or $1900. It was a 4.155 bore.

I'm curious if this is a good price. I've been considering going all out with a SBC and this seems like it may be a good start, with the large bore.

What say ye?

 

Just looking through the 3/5/2004 issue of National Dragster:

Speed-o-motive: $1,849

Competition Products: "from" $1,650

Performance Auto Works: $1,663

 

Thanks, Fred!

I did some checking online and found similar prices. It seems the $1600 ones have lesser quality main caps than the $1800 ones.

I guess this block I found is no prize.

What do you think about using it in a 4th Gen?

 

It looks like a one-time deal; it's sitting on their counter. I think it has 400 mains too. I was wanting a big cube SBC, so it's tempting... It says "originally $2199" I think, so they feel it's already discounted. I haven't offered anything less.

I know it'd be the start of an expensive project, so I'm wary to go ahead.

What cost do you guys think I'm looking at, just for the longblock: heads/intake, crank, cam, distributor, etc.?

 

One big advantage with a new block like that is you don't have to worry about much machining, just final honing, that's it. That is a lot of money for just the block, but it should be pretty much bullit-proof. If you can afford it, I would say go for it.
You won't be able to use the LT1 heads or intake though. You could go with standard SBC heads and a holley or edelbrock pro-flo injection system. None of these are cheap either.
And, none of these items is legal in CA. I don't even know if it's legal to swap out the LT1 from the car, I doubt it!

 

I'm in Ohio, so that's a non-issue.

Yeah, I would definitely go with some nice heads, 15/18* most likely. I was even back at Arao's site checking out their prices. Not TOO bad... even their next-to-most-expensive set of 32V heads (C-3) is about $6100. This is for 389/303 I/E flow at .7. Not too bad, considering the awesome midlift #s too.

Then there's the intake... haven't done much looking in that area. Anyone know what kind of intakes are good for a 447ci SBC?

It's a fun thought to entertain... my first rough estimate shows about $16k for the longblock and EFI setup.

 

There's been quite a few posts about swapping a Gen I SBC into a 4th gen. It's not an easy project. Considering the potential of the LT1, I would only consider this if I were building a race car. But that's just IMHO.

Rich Krause

 

Yeah, I agree for the most part, Rich.

I am partial to N/A power, especially having had n2o for the last couple years.

I'm wanting 130+mph traps N/A, that can still be driven decently on the street; and from what I've seen, that's right on the edge of LT1 feasibility because of its cube/head limitations.

 

I understand about NA, but you are really altering the price/performance equation when you are thinking about that kind of swap for a street car. Keep in mind that there is almost nothing you can swap over. You would need everything from valve covers to the oil pan. That last 5mph is going to cost BIG bucks if it takes switching to a Gen I to do it. I'd swap in a big block before I'd do a Gen I if I wanted insane NA performance. It wouldn't cost any more. Or, what about an LS1 based NA motor?

Rich

 

I think the BBC would be too heavy for my handling desires. Haven't looked at it seriously, though.

As for LSx, yeah good point... but at that point, I should just sell my car for a '98+. I just paid it off and am kind of attached to it now.

I'll keep doing research. Do you know of a forum where I could get feedback on different head/intake combos for large cube SBCs? Or is this forum ok for that?

 

Not sure of the best places on the 'net for that. There are some folks here who know a lot aout the Gen I stuff though. There is a LOT of written material on the subject. If you are serious about it, talking to a pro (like Bret Bauer) wouldn't be a bad idea. I've had a couple of hi-po Gen I cars in the past but my knowledge of the subject is not really up to date. You thinking carb or fuel injection?

Rich

 

I want EFI, and am assuming a FAST would be the best value for performance.

Does Bret charge for advice/feedback? Or could you recommend any good books on the subject?

My first quick estimate has:

• Block - 1900
• Crank - 1800
• Rods - 1000
• Pistons - 800-1000
• Heads - 6000 (allowing for something extreme like the Arao C-3s)
• Cam/RR - 600-800
• Intake - ??? 600+ (this is one area for which I don't have much info)
• Headers - 1000-1500 (1 7/8 or 2" - stepped?)
• Distributor - ??? 300+ (another "gap" area for me)
• EFI - 1500

For just the stuff under the engine bay, have I forgotten anything else major? Not counting gaskets, etc...

If not, that comes out to around $16000 or so. But that allows for some serious heads and a 4.155" bore x 4.150" stroke fully forged Dart SBC (for n2o).

How far off am I? Be honest, I can take it.

 

You are being much more realistic about costs than many people with big ambition! On the one hand, I don't think you need a $6,000 set of heads, even with what you have in mind. But you are leaving out a fuel system, wiring harness, some valvetrain parts, a throttle body, etc. But overall your total is pretty reasonable. Engine builders will talk to you for "free" if they percieve you as a serious potential customer.

But I thought this was all NA? If you are considering nitrous you can go damn fast with a 500hp LT1 and a 300hp nitrous system on top of it. If you are talking more hp than this you are in real serious territory and there are going to be a lot of additional expenses. Depending on what you already have there will be chassis and suspension upgrades (roll cage, frame reinforcements, etc.), brakes, and drivetrain upgrades to consider. Also the cost of new underwear

Rich Krause

 

OK, cool! I did have the fuel system in there as EFI, unless you mean something extra. I did forget the TB (or TBs plural!), though, yes! And the bearings, now that I think more...

Yes, I want 130+ N/A, but n2o as an option. Once you've opened the bottle, it's hard to close it forever!

So, I was thinking around 550-600rwhp N/A with an occasional ~400hp shot at the track/onramp. Yes, new undergarments may be in order!

 

I was one of the first people here to go to a Dart block set-up and got a lot of flack for it, but I was thinking ahead unlike a lot of people.

Stay away from those junk *** 32v heads to start with!
A great crank will only cost you about $1100.00, rods yeah 1000.00 if you want carillo's, pistons maybe $600.00, heads you can spend $6000.00 on a set of 23 degree heads full of Ti valves and actually a 17 degree angle, an intake for those heads would run $1500 +-, I can build the headers for $1000.00, go crank trigger for the dist., a good EFI pump will run about $600.00 to supply what you want to have, EFI computer (FAST, $1600+), TB $450.00, injectors about $500+.

Or you can go with an 1175 Dominator like me for only $1100.00, done deal.

If you'd like anymore info or someone (me) to build this beast for you drop me a line.

Really depends on how gund-ho you are going to get with it. If you aren't going to rev it to the moon, then some parts can be cheaper.
I made 653 horse at only 11:1, and a baby 250 260 dur cam, N/A.

Best time spinning was a 1.32 60' and 6.19 @ 112 in the 1/8 and neve rhad a chance to tune the chassis or motor. Had to make my license runs and head out. that was with a 200 shot, best on motor was a 6.69, with 1.32 60'. Stock suspension! and $35 shocks.


Take care,
Dave Brown
93 TA, 406ci Dart block, CARBED!