Cryogenics for block strength??
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Posts: 451
From: Bradenton Fl
Cryogenics for block strength??
I just read in the back of my fastest street car mag in the back under the advertisements that there are a few companies offering cryo treatments for many hard parts that suffer stress in racing engines. I have known of this treatment being made available for trans parts,rods,cranks, ect but they also offer treatments of whole cylinder blocks! Its reasonable too at only 200.00 bucks for the whole block, They claim an increase in strength reaching 700%but promise at least a 100% increase garanteed.I have a 420 ci engine thats almost completly assembled using the problem prone 400 block I did pour the block and added moroso 4 bolt splayed main conversion and a lower end girdle but im going to call the company and see if it would harm the freshly machined block. I will let you know what I find out.
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,428
Re: Cryogenics for block strength??
We have many threads on this topic. 
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showt...highlight=cryo
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showt...highlight=cryo
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showt...highlight=cryo
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showt...highlight=cryo
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showt...highlight=cryo
alot of those threads also have alot of links in them.
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showt...highlight=cryo
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showt...highlight=cryo
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showt...highlight=cryo
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showt...highlight=cryo
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showt...highlight=cryo
alot of those threads also have alot of links in them.
Re: Cryogenics for block strength??
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,931
From: Upstate NY
Re: Cryogenics for block strength??
Originally Posted by n20ta2
I just read in the back of my fastest street car mag in the back under the advertisements that there are a few companies offering cryo treatments for many hard parts that suffer stress in racing engines. I have known of this treatment being made available for trans parts,rods,cranks, ect but they also offer treatments of whole cylinder blocks! Its reasonable too at only 200.00 bucks for the whole block, They claim an increase in strength reaching 700%but promise at least a 100% increase garanteed.I have a 420 ci engine thats almost completly assembled using the problem prone 400 block I did pour the block and added moroso 4 bolt splayed main conversion and a lower end girdle but im going to call the company and see if it would harm the freshly machined block. I will let you know what I find out.
You do know that you my need to touch up some of the machining after the "big chill", right? I suggest main bores and cylinder bores will at least need remeasuring, and maybe rework.
700% is pretty good!
Let's see, if a 400 block will normally only hold about 800 hp, for $200 it will be good for 5600 hp?
Does it sound too good to be true, especially the 700% part? Heck, even 1600 hp (guarantee of 100% more strength) is pretty good for a 400 block!
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 576
From: Missouri
Re: Cryogenics for block strength??
Originally Posted by n20ta2
I just read in the back of my fastest street car mag in the back under the advertisements that there are a few companies offering cryo treatments for many hard parts that suffer stress in racing engines. I have known of this treatment being made available for trans parts,rods,cranks, ect but they also offer treatments of whole cylinder blocks! Its reasonable too at only 200.00 bucks for the whole block, They claim an increase in strength reaching 700%but promise at least a 100% increase garanteed.I have a 420 ci engine thats almost completly assembled using the problem prone 400 block I did pour the block and added moroso 4 bolt splayed main conversion and a lower end girdle but im going to call the company and see if it would harm the freshly machined block. I will let you know what I find out.
There will be no change in strength at all. Show that to a materials engineer and they will laugh at it. Only a very few alloys desgined for cyrogenic quenching will gain anything. I am taking tool steel, knife blades, ect. Not stone age cast iron.
The adds that promise to make your pecker longer are in the same group.
Why there are no laws against this type of false advertizing is beyond me.
If you want to have some real fun, find a head hunting lawer and show him that ad and go after the company. You might be able to bankrupt them with their lies and buy a new Z06 with the money.
Z28
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Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 10,745
From: Buffalo, New York
Re: Cryogenics for block strength??
Even without knowing much specific about cryogenic treatment, the claims seem preposterous on their face. What is the "block strength" they refer to? It seems like a meaningless term that would need to be defined in a logical way before you could start talking about increasing it by "100%". How do you measure it? If you can't measure it, how do you know you have increased it? How much "block strength" is enough?
The people who do make blocks for hi-po use (GM, Dart, World Products, etc.) don't talk about their products being xxx% stronger than a stock block, do they?
Rich
The people who do make blocks for hi-po use (GM, Dart, World Products, etc.) don't talk about their products being xxx% stronger than a stock block, do they?
Rich
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,428
Re: Cryogenics for block strength??
Originally Posted by rskrause
Even without knowing much specific about cryogenic treatment, the claims seem preposterous on their face. What is the "block strength" they refer to? It seems like a meaningless term that would need to be defined in a logical way before you could start talking about increasing it by "100%". How do you measure it? If you can't measure it, how do you know you have increased it? How much "block strength" is enough?
The people who do make blocks for hi-po use (GM, Dart, World Products, etc.) don't talk about their products being xxx% stronger than a stock block, do they?
Rich
The people who do make blocks for hi-po use (GM, Dart, World Products, etc.) don't talk about their products being xxx% stronger than a stock block, do they?
Rich
A question I'm wondering now is, where does rigidity fit in all of this. A block too rigid but not strong enough will obviously break. But, do you think overall a more rigid block would make more power? Or how about a very flexible block? If it was very flexible, couldn't that provide an extra % of a cube of the displacement of the entire engine? Actually it probably wouldn't be able to seal very well. Or, if it only it expanded on combustion, it would give you a bit less power at the top of the stroke, and more power at the bottom of the stroke...man, I'm out of my league.
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,931
From: Upstate NY
Re: Cryogenics for block strength??
Originally Posted by number77
I didn't think about that right away, but it makes tons of sense. You'd look at torsional, sheer, bending, expansion/compression forces (are there any i'm leaving out?).
A question I'm wondering now is, where does rigidity fit in all of this. A block too rigid but not strong enough will obviously break. But, do you think overall a more rigid block would make more power? Or how about a very flexible block? If it was very flexible, couldn't that provide an extra % of a cube of the displacement of the entire engine? Actually it probably wouldn't be able to seal very well. Or, if it only it expanded on combustion, it would give you a bit less power at the top of the stroke, and more power at the bottom of the stroke...man, I'm out of my league.
A question I'm wondering now is, where does rigidity fit in all of this. A block too rigid but not strong enough will obviously break. But, do you think overall a more rigid block would make more power? Or how about a very flexible block? If it was very flexible, couldn't that provide an extra % of a cube of the displacement of the entire engine? Actually it probably wouldn't be able to seal very well. Or, if it only it expanded on combustion, it would give you a bit less power at the top of the stroke, and more power at the bottom of the stroke...man, I'm out of my league.
You're in the Mudhen league here, 77.
No offense intended.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 96
From: Stationed in Guam
Re: Cryogenics for block strength??
Originally Posted by 1racerdude
Block treatment isn't necessary. Want a stronger block get a Dart or Botie.
A Dart or Botie block can be two three times the costs of a simple cryo teatment. Evenstill,when yo planning big power and did happen to have enough for a Dart of Botie block. Getting it cryo'd anyway(if it isn't already) is just that extra security knowing you did everything in your power to protect your investment.
~BB~
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,001
From: Bay Area, CA
Re: Cryogenics for block strength??
Block are a casting, known for porosity and fluctuations in density and hardness(as compared to a forging). Cryo is snake oil in that application. For some forgings in some applications can benifit from the process, but this is not the case with a block.
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Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 10,745
From: Buffalo, New York
Re: Cryogenics for block strength??
Originally Posted by number77
I didn't think about that right away, but it makes tons of sense. You'd look at torsional, sheer, bending, expansion/compression forces (are there any i'm leaving out?).
A question I'm wondering now is, where does rigidity fit in all of this. A block too rigid but not strong enough will obviously break. But, do you think overall a more rigid block would make more power? Or how about a very flexible block? If it was very flexible, couldn't that provide an extra % of a cube of the displacement of the entire engine? Actually it probably wouldn't be able to seal very well. Or, if it only it expanded on combustion, it would give you a bit less power at the top of the stroke, and more power at the bottom of the stroke...man, I'm out of my league.
A question I'm wondering now is, where does rigidity fit in all of this. A block too rigid but not strong enough will obviously break. But, do you think overall a more rigid block would make more power? Or how about a very flexible block? If it was very flexible, couldn't that provide an extra % of a cube of the displacement of the entire engine? Actually it probably wouldn't be able to seal very well. Or, if it only it expanded on combustion, it would give you a bit less power at the top of the stroke, and more power at the bottom of the stroke...man, I'm out of my league.
Rich
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,931
From: Upstate NY
Re: Cryogenics for block strength??
Originally Posted by rskrause
It would make sense IF they specified what they were talking about. The claim would then be either verifiable or refutable. And if you knew what was being measured, you could decide if it was important or not!
Rich
Rich
Maybe they put the block in a garbage bag and discharge a 10 lb CO2 extinguisher into the bag.
Hey, I'd do than for $150 if you deliver and pick up a clean block. In fact, we'll do it while you wait. Do these guys also sell inserts for your intake plumbing that increases fuel mileage 24% or more?
I noticed an ad for PRO+PLUS pills in a current car mag that offers enlargement "up to 5 inches or more!". It was "discovered" by a doctor. Only $160 plus $8 for shipping for a 3 month's supply. 100% money back guarantee. I wonder who measures to get the refund?
Rich you are in the wrong specialty.
Barnum was a wise man.
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,428
Re: Cryogenics for block strength??
Originally Posted by OldSStroker
Flexiblity in a block is BAD. 4 bolt mains, 6 bolt mains, girdles, studs, extra material, extra webbing, filling the water passages etc. is all about making it stiffer. Stiff is GOOD, flexible is BAD. Funny how many things in nature are that way.
You're in the Mudhen league here, 77. No offense intended.
You're in the Mudhen league here, 77.
No offense intended.After reading this
http://www.csupomona.edu/~jskoga/mudhen/himself.html
I'm guessing it means I'm out of place, because I know I am. I also seem to be more interested in theory, whether automotive or other subjects. Since I don't have a car I can mod, things like "what cam should I use" don't really suite my fancy.
But back on topic, Beryllium is really stiff, so are there any Beryllium alloys out there being used (probably combined with aluminum/nickel/copper) for any parts of the engine?
edit: I just ran across this. It also mentions elasticity.
Originally Posted by internet
First in this field was Ilmor, producer of the Mercedes V10s used by McLaren in recent seasons. Since 1998, Ilmor has manufactured pistons from an aluminum-beryllium alloy, thereby reducing their weight by a third, possibly more, and gaining enhanced thermal conductivity. The cost of this alloy, and the fact that fine beryllium dust particles arguably constitute a health hazard, has led to an effective ban on its use, imposed by the FIA. Under pressure from McLaren and Mercedes, however, this ruling, for which Ferrari lobbied hard, has been postponed to the end of the current season.
Rather than specifically outlawing aluminum-beryllium (as requested by Ferrari) the new ruling for 2001 prohibits the use of any metallic material with a specific modulus of elasticity in excess of 40 Gpa/ (gm/cc). This leaves the door open for a newly introduced Metal Matrix Composite (MMC) material developed for Formula 1 piston manufacture by liner and piston supplier Perfect Bore.
This aluminum and ceramic alloy offers a weight-saving approaching that of aluminum-beryllium, together with excellent thermal characteristics. Unlike aluminum- beryllium, says Perfect Bore, it has a lot of potential for inlet valve as well as piston manufacture, promising significant gains over titanium valves.
Another application for Perfect Bore's latest MMC is the cylinder liner. Aluminum- beryllium has been used to produce lightweight wet liners, but the latest trend is the use of a super-thin dry liner within what is effectively a linerless block.
Rather than specifically outlawing aluminum-beryllium (as requested by Ferrari) the new ruling for 2001 prohibits the use of any metallic material with a specific modulus of elasticity in excess of 40 Gpa/ (gm/cc). This leaves the door open for a newly introduced Metal Matrix Composite (MMC) material developed for Formula 1 piston manufacture by liner and piston supplier Perfect Bore.
This aluminum and ceramic alloy offers a weight-saving approaching that of aluminum-beryllium, together with excellent thermal characteristics. Unlike aluminum- beryllium, says Perfect Bore, it has a lot of potential for inlet valve as well as piston manufacture, promising significant gains over titanium valves.
Another application for Perfect Bore's latest MMC is the cylinder liner. Aluminum- beryllium has been used to produce lightweight wet liners, but the latest trend is the use of a super-thin dry liner within what is effectively a linerless block.
