After Bret mentioned these to me im looking at going with them instead of the Dart 230s for obvious reasons and id like to hear what other people are doing with them compared to their setups.

Its going to be a 406 sbc not LT1

Thanks,
-john

 

I like the idea. Don't know anyone who's built a street engine with them personally so I can't really say.

As Bret mentioned in another thread... any RR 23º head is gonna require a special intake anyway so why not consider the 18X? Seems like a logical choice to me. Wish I could add more in the way of tech but no direct experience here. Besides that, you have someone to guide you through all the little stuff with these heads do you should be fine.

Good luck!

-Mindgame

 

Thats partly what I was thinking, it cuts a few corners here and there to achieve the same result which makes things nice. Id really like to put together a motor with as Im sure it would be pretty sick. Im stuck in the dilemma of thinking " If I only spend a little bit more I can make it that much better" Problem Is If I keep doing that money becomes a real issue real fast.
So im looking at biteing the bullet and going with the 18x which the topend package is 3400 bucks or so, I havnt looked elsewhere but it sounds about even, then add headers and pistons.... Or going with the Track 1x's topend package for around 2300. which gives alot up compared to the 18x obviously but money wise I think is still a good deal, and all of these prices are not the CNC versions.

http://www.brodix.com/18STDX%2618SPX.html

http://www.brodix.com/Top%20End%20Combos.html


so its still in the planning stages at this point
-john

 

Why stop there?
Why not go to a set of Little Chiefs? Seriously.

 

Well, at least I don't have to ask... ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?

How did we go from talking about heads that are just a step away from std 23º to the Little Chief? You'll have $1k+ more just in rockers and stands.... not to mention the fact that they won't work on an LT1 or any std lifter bore layout small block. So.... where were you coming from?

CamaroGuru,
Since we're already on the subject of 18X heads..... have you checked ebay lately? A friend of mine just sold a set of bare (seats & guides installed) GM 18º heads, intake, T&D rocker setup, with titanium/stainless intake/exhaust valves still in the box, for the low price of $2000.

There ARE deals to be found.

-Mindgame

 

OK, fair question...

In terms of stuff that is essentially bolt-on, there is a pretty good selection of 23 degree heads, right?

Well, once you begin to go beyond that, the effort and cost starts to rise fairly quickly.

Where I'm coming from is this; once you pass a certain level of difficulty and cost, why not take it all the way?

Now, I'm assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that the Little Chief heads will work on a standard small block with just the standard machine work involved in actually bolting it on. Obviously the Big Chiefs wont, because those are BBC heads, but the littles...

Please understand, I am not trying to minimize the effort involved, I am only trying to point out that once you have gone so far, are the Little Chiefs really that much further?


If I'm missing something, such as incompatible bore center; please tell me.

 

Well you building a street/strip car, or an oval track race car?

You know there is a reason they show them being tested on a 430cu.in engine, and they start to show you the dyno numbers at 4600 RPMs. 244-254cc intake runner, and "Oval Track / Drag Race / Pro Street" These heads will suffer on a 406 with NO LOW END, so unless it is a drag only car with a 4500-5000 stall convertor look for something smaller, bigger isn't always better

 

As far as 23* heads go, I'd be inclined to go with an All Pro casting. Their 245RR are $1650 or so retail. They use a .450 o/s rocker and a .150-.180 o/s lifter. Nothing crazy. You'll still need a custom intake, but AP does offer packages. Wish I had flow #s, but AP claims their 227RR at:

200 159.0 117.0
300 223.3 181.2
400 277.5 221.4
500 308.1 245.8
600 323.6 257.1
700 333.1 263.7

Little Chiefs are to SB heads as an atomic bomb is to firecrackers. Not much OTS stuff applies to those heads. Call Summit and ask for a set of rockers for a Chief.

Little Chiefs
All Pro 245s

 

Oh great the ignorance of BIG PORT sizes on a street motor, lets just throw out average cross section and minumum cross section in picking a head. Hell if small ports where the way to go we all would be running 462 fuelie castings..... I actually have a set of these (18X) sitting on the bench at the shop right now.... Doubt you've even seen them before.

I'm a HUGE fan of All Pro castings... Problem lies that even though they are 23* castings they still need shaft mounts and that $1650 is just for castings, they still need a real valve job, porting and of course valves before you think about the valvetrain. They are the CHOICE for a 23*deg head class rule since they can move 370cfm but like anything good they are not cheap. The savings on those heads comes in piston and intake manifold choices.

The 18X still uses standard rockers so yeah it does have some issues with the pushrod pinch point, but other than valve angle and header flange differences it's basically better than most RR 23* castings and about the same price. These thing should be allowed on a SBC in classes where 23* heads are legal. Say like in the Engine Masters, or PRO Pro Stock.

Little Chiefs are a WHOLE new ball game... a buddy of mine asked RMRE for pricing on a set of castings, ported with valves and $10K was the magic number. Plus the custom block from Dart and all the rest of the fun parts.... cool heads but lots of work.

Bret

 

Little cheifs are a monstrocity of a head... i saw an article a while back on a big-cube SBC (430+ CI) with them. I can't remember all the details, but they made around 800hp on PUMP GAS... and it took close to 7k rpm to do it. Any build with an LT block would need to rev like a Cup car to make power with them.

Mr. Horsepower made some comments on them in a thread last year (in advanced tech) and said they were a good head considering the limitations they have to work around (pushrod placement, mainly). The closest i've seen them come to an LT1 is the 396 KTamez built the other year with an EFI-converted HV1801 intake. He never got to run it, but everyone he talked to indicated that 650-700hp wouldn't be much of a problem. Man i wanted to see that engine run.

 

:flashes back too 1977:
My old 330hp 350 had a set of 462's on it. 11.4:1 domes from the factory and with the old gm alum intake and a 650 dp it ran 12.30's all day long in a 72 nova.
:/back too 2005:

LT1's rule

 

Well, in the context of an LTx engine, I would personally feel that they would only be useful in the context of forced induction, more supercharging than turbocharging.

I only brought the idea up because I thought it was an interesting question.

 

Doesn't trickflow also make some 18* aluminum heads now? Believe they were $2095.95 a pair (assembled) and $1465.95 bare castings.

Part # TFS-31800001A. (assembled)
Part # TFS-3182B001 (bare)
Advertised flow on the trick flows is:

0.100 73.1/60.9
0.200 143.7/113.3
0.300 214.9/158.4
0.400 274.0/197.2
0.500 312.5/224.3
0.600 333.6/237.4
0.700 334.0/245.8

Any particular reason it has to be brodix? Just curious if the trick flows don't work I was seriously considering these and just gonna convert to lt1 style bolts + reverse cooling but I couldn't figure out what I would need to do as far as intake.

 

I can see that being reasonable. Even a 396 LT1 wouldn't make much power in the rpms we normally see on the street in NA form. But add in some forced induction and that table would most likely turn. A positive displacement SC would be awsome since you can hit boost so low in the rpm range and get out of vacuum.

OTOH, there's no way i can imagine what the little chiefs would do with 15-20psi of boost running through them (no matter what displacement small block). There's already a few members here making ~1000rwhp with AFR castings on turbo'd LT1s at close to 20psi. That much boost with little cheifs would make a HELL of a lot more power.

 

I'm not sure about the TFS heads, but the brodix 18x can still use 23* valvetrain stuff... no offset rockers or lifters and still use a HR cam. Work out the intake issue and you have an LS1 killer... amongst other brands