Thanks Rich on the reccomendations for parts. I have tried to do a couple hours of research a night on this stuff, been making steady progress. Does anyone have opinions on Crower rods? They say they will make a custom set if needed, which i know, means $$$. Anyway, i was looking at the BBC rods, they offer the 4340 and the titanium. I know i will prob just have to write the company, but i wonder if the titanium is stronger. I know it is stronger by weight, but i am wondering what the difference is by size, seeing how both types are size limited. I have done tons of thinking, i.e. many sleepless nights, and i have set new goals for my car. I want the bottom end to be able to handle 2000hp. So far, all figures i have seen on cranks, rods, and pistons really for that matter are all a good deal under 2000hp. I dont want to break the bottom end if i put this type of money into it! Will a treated 4340 forged bottome end hold 2000hp in a BBC???

 

2000hp small stock block Chevy? No, it just isn't going to happen. Not to mention that no other major component on the car would be suitable without complete reworking. A 2000hp car (as opposed to just a motor) would have to be a custom tube frame car to approach being usable. It would need $8/gal race gas, BTW. Though, if you could aff ord the rest of the project, $20 in gas to warm it up wouldn't bother you! More likely, you would need to run methanol with its' associated problems. And again, the 2000hp isn't going to happen anyway. I don't even want to get into what it would take to produce 2000hp but will just reiterate that if you wanted 2000hp you would not start with a stock small block Chevy.

Crower makes good stuff. Titanium is very expensive and strong. It is used in high rpm endurance applications. A set of titanium rods is in the $2,000-4,000 range. I have personally never seen them used because I am most familiar with drag race and hi-po street motors. Street and street/strip cars use steel rods, with the high end rods being "billet", the moderate range "forged" and the low end "cast" out of various steels. Most pure race drag motors use aluminum. Cheap, light, strong, but they don't last very long so are not used in motors that see street time.

Rich Krause

 

Rich,
If you misread my previous post, i have have firmly decided to go with building a "dream" Big Block Chevy. I have been trying to research this stuff for a couple hours every night for the past two weeks or so, no including the already aquired knowledge i had had. The way i see it, with either a World Products Pro Block, basically platformed off the Merlin III from what i can see, can easily handle 2000hp, says so right on the site, i mean they could be wrong, but thats what they claim, and it is a very repituble company. I have also found a few other companies that make some outstanding big blocks, with deck heights going up to 12.8 inches. Of course these specialty blocks run almost at $10k. I am still undecided of whether i want to every last penny under the sun into this project. I have to a lot more hard thinking, even more than i have thus far. The World Pro block looks very enticing though, seeing how it is steel instead of sleeved aluminum and what not. I was thinking that if i were to decide to go all out, i might as well start calling everyone under the sun and see what i can get max deck height for a "competitive" price. I was even thinking maybe cross bolt or cross mains block, dunno where i could get one, that is where the phone calls are gonna start coming into play. But basically, i just need to know what you guys think about off the shelf---not one-off, 4340 forged bottom end. I am assuming you can get Billet forged 4340 parts. Maybe if i can find a place to get a very strong heat temper to em, build up a nice thick layer on the outside, maybe the bottom end could hold 2000hp reliably?? I know 2000hp is possible in a BBC, my guestimates, based off a 1008hp 632 pump gas monster, i could see a 750-850 c.i. BBC pumping out 1300-1400 on race gas, then if you keep enough cylinder wall, you could spray 600-700 N2O. Granted it is not gonna see nitrous oxide all the time, only rarely, i want it to hold up over tons of abuse. If i am gonna put this much dough i earn over the next several of years of my life, i want it to last as long as possible, even if that means paying the extra money for one-off parts. But i just want to know if some strong billet 4340 parts will be able to hold.

 

OK, I misunderstood about the change to an aftermarket big block. But the issues with 2,000hp still stand in most respects. Again, have you thought about what kind of a chassis will be good to go with a 2,000hp motor? What transmission? What kind of fuel you are going to use? Etc.

Even with a "big" big block you are talking over 3hp/ci. To get that much hp from an OHV V-8 is not trivial. I think your plans just aren't realistic. It sounds like you want the worlds most powerful street car. It is supposed to be a street car, right? That's a nice goal, but you will be entering essentially uncharted waters. Never cheap or quick. I know some people locally you could give ~$250,000 dollars to and in a couple of years your car will be ready, voila! Jim Salemi (G-Force Race Cars at www.gforceracecars.com) can build the chassis and maybe you could get Bret Bauer (SS Stroker Ace on the board) to build your motor. My friend Bob Kennedy could bolt it all together and tune it (www.kennedysdynotune.com).

Rich

 

If your serious, and have the bucks, then I would give these guys a call..

Duttweiler Performance
1563 Los Angeles Ave.
Saticoy, CA 93004
805 - 659 - 3648

You say your stuck on having a dream big block. Well, in all honesty, I don't see it happening in anything approaching a real street car. The kind of HP your talking about is pretty much reserved for the race track and race track equipment. Duttweiler can hook you up with the nastiest turbo small block you can possibly imagine, and can make a street car all but un-drivable with the kind of power they build (Chris Chow's car somes to mind).

In order to get 2K HP out of an engine (keep in mind your in IHRA mountain motor territory with that HP goal), you have to use somewhat expendable parts, and be willing to tear it down pretty frequently. It's not like you just bolt it up and run it for 50K miles. It simply wouldn't last that long. As to the rest of the car, your talking about a full tube chassis, and nuclear proof parts (which pretty much don't exist for street driveable cars).

My suggestion would be to seek out someone who has a truely powerful car (not some talker who threw a parts catalog at their car), and go for a RIDE in it. You will absolutely not believe what a very high power SMALL block feels like (700+HP). Now picture that times 3 and driving it on a street without dying. I'm not knocking your project , don't get me wrong; I just think that if you set your sights (and your wallet) at something that is actually DOABLE you can end up with on of the fastest, quickest, and nastiest rides on the planet

Just an opinion. I'm sure I'll get hammered for it...

Dave C.

 

That is cool Dave, no hammering from me. In some aspects, over the next year to a couple of years i might end up agreeing with you... The whole concept is a work in progress. I change my mind on small stuff prob once a week, as my knowledge of everything i can absorb on engine building grows. I am sure to do tons more research while i save money and before i buy my first part. And on that note, i plan to have the whole project meticulously planned out before i buy the first part also, and stick to it very strictly!....On that note, i guess i am still somewhat open to all opinions/guidance. But I would like a Fuel Injected car, with programmable fuel maps, so i mean it doesnt have to be 1300hp or whatever all the time, but it would be nice to have and know u can produce it, and if it is ever possible to finish a setup(rest of the car) that can handle that much power, it sure would be nice to (i casually say) "play" with every once in a while. ...
- Terrance

 

Mine's a 'vert, admittedly "floppy" compared to a coupe. But even with welded SFC's, and an 8-point bar it visibly twists when I launch. And that's with less than 1,000hp and a 10" tire. A full cage would obviously help, but a full cage in a steet car with an already cramped interior is no pleasure. I know, 'cause I have "been there, done that". And a 10" tire ain't gonna cut it with 2,000hp! So, we're talking a full tube frame car here as far as I am concerned.

Rich Krause

 

No hammering here. You are spot on!

"nuclear proof parts" is a great line considering the overpressure a nuke creates.

I suggest that anyone who has done a successful 2K hp car which is remotely streetable has invested more money that they care to admit. WELL into six figures, IMO. This is not a project for the "faint of wallet".

 

Thanks for all the info and opinions guys. I plan on keeping my mind open for a while till i start building up some cash that can even attempt anything close to this. I guess i currently dont know what i am going to do at this moment, but it is not like what i had discussed previously just came to me on a whim, i have performed a decent amount of thought on the idea. As far as the rest of the car, i realized the extreme alterations that will have to be made, but i had already thought of that when i originally thought of doing anything even close to this. Back to my original questions about the integrity of the bottom end. Does anyone know any actual answers. Like how much can a fully forged, if not billet forged 4340 bottom end hold? And what treatments would be best on the forged internals, ex. Heat tempering(hardening), cryo treatment, etc??? Real answers, on advanced tech forum, anyone seriously know???

Thanx again guys,
- Terrance

 

i take back what i say in this post, as what i said has been disproved in following posts

 

Hmmm. What do you mean by tolerances and measurements are a little "loose"? Are you saying you measured pistons and didn't get the same numbers JE did? Or do you mean things varied from piston to piston in the same set? Your statement is a pretty general one. Specifics would be appreciated.

"Tightest" or closest fit and therefore tolerance or variation from a size, is piston pin to piston fit. Next is probably ring groove width and squareness to the piston. I would be interested in how you measured those features.

 

Dang, I know everyone has their preferences. But I have never really heard anything negative about JE pistons, even though they may not be everyone's favorite.

Rich Krause

 

yes, that is what i had meant. when they were measured, unfortunately after the fact and much money wasted, it was the fast that the je's were at fault for the engine failure on two engines. maybe these were isolated incidents but better safe than sorry.

 

got some of the information from one of my club members with a subaru on them.

"pistons tolerances are not as good as they should have been. Pistons are designed to slightly taper inwards towards the top of the piston from the skirt. I had my pistons poly moly coated and the wear marks on the side of the piston skirt explain everything. If you look at the wear on the piston skirt you will see that there is a high spot on the bottom section of the skirt and a high spot on the top of the skirt. However on the middle of the skirt it was on untouched. The the skirt section of the piston should be completely flat and you can see how its not. The second flaw of the JE piston is how thin the area is from the top of the ring to the top of the piston. "

the other problem with that engine was the ring gap was too small, but balme is not being placed anywhere with that as who's fault it was (engine builders, je not making them right, block not being honed as it should) wasn't determined nor did he try to find out

 

Your asking for absolute answers to hypothetical questions... then jumping all over the map on what your plans and intent are.... in order to get serious answers, you need to ask serious questions, and in all honesty I have a hard time taking these seriously. It's coming across more like a fishing expedition.....

Just an observation, in my role as moderator.......