The new Camaro V6 might be the best model of the entire lineup!
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I'm over it, we'll see what happens I guess. Show me the data that says no one wants an economical entry level V8 in a base Camaro. I'm not against this V6 car. You could say it's more of a what if scenario.
Last edited by IZ28; May 22, 2008 at 02:04 AM.
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I think the issue was with your claim everyone would rather sacrifice 1MPG to get a V8 with the same HP/TQ as a V6. Personally, I find that claim rather dubious, so it's fair to ask you for data. I don't expect that you have data, but I'm wondering what you base this opinion on. There are lots of people out there who can't tell the difference in sound between an I4, V6, and V8. I would think they'd rather take the V6 in your hypothetical scenario, so I think you're wrong. I have no data. Just another opinion.
By the way, I'd love an economical entry level V8 in a base Camaro. I just don't think it's possible, given that an economical V8 would be expensive (though "economical" is subjective, and if you mean relative to a 1974 car, it would probably be pretty cheap to build a V8 that got 18mpg). Today, I'd consider "economical" to mean an EPA city of at least 20 and hwy of at least 28. A V8 that gets that kind of mileage would be expensive, and thus, not entry level.
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But that's not even the top V6.
The 3.6 direct injected V6 would absolutely scream in the new Camaro.
It has over 25 more horsepower than the LT1 Camaro did. In a 5th gen, it would weigh roughly as much as the 4th gen LT1 did. Again, with the right gearing, it would make up the torque difference between the two.
The 3.6 direct injected V6 would absolutely scream in the new Camaro.
It has over 25 more horsepower than the LT1 Camaro did. In a 5th gen, it would weigh roughly as much as the 4th gen LT1 did. Again, with the right gearing, it would make up the torque difference between the two.
I have to agree with your analysis.
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I'd like to see 2 V6's and 3 V8's basically, but from the last two pages I see that it just won't happen. A lower powered, good MPG, entry level V8 is now blasphemy in todays market.
BTW, what I said of having a V6 and V8 that basically performed somewhat the same was a hypothetical question. What I meant was, if you gave the choice ahead of time, not in the actual lineup but hypothetically, why would someone NOT choose the V8 model over the V6 providing they had similar cost and specs in a car like the Camaro, since GM is so good at getting power and MPG out of their V8's. Would people rather have the small V8 in an "uplevel RS" over the high powered V6? That is all. Insurance is the only reason I can come up with. I seem to remember there being TONS of support for this here and on other boards through the years when most were still clueless about powertrains for the car. The new V6 might change the way V6 performance is looked at in musclecars, but maybe a small GM V8 could have also changed the way people look at V8's. Not as just expensive, high HP guzzlers, IMO better than the 4.6 GT ever could have. I still think there's a market for an entry level V8, you said you'd like that yourself, guess it's just not possible at this point in time.
BTW, what I said of having a V6 and V8 that basically performed somewhat the same was a hypothetical question. What I meant was, if you gave the choice ahead of time, not in the actual lineup but hypothetically, why would someone NOT choose the V8 model over the V6 providing they had similar cost and specs in a car like the Camaro, since GM is so good at getting power and MPG out of their V8's. Would people rather have the small V8 in an "uplevel RS" over the high powered V6? That is all. Insurance is the only reason I can come up with. I seem to remember there being TONS of support for this here and on other boards through the years when most were still clueless about powertrains for the car. The new V6 might change the way V6 performance is looked at in musclecars, but maybe a small GM V8 could have also changed the way people look at V8's. Not as just expensive, high HP guzzlers, IMO better than the 4.6 GT ever could have. I still think there's a market for an entry level V8, you said you'd like that yourself, guess it's just not possible at this point in time.
Last edited by IZ28; May 22, 2008 at 03:45 AM.
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BTW, what I said of having a V6 and V8 that basically performed somewhat the same was a hypothetical question. What I meant was, if you gave the choice ahead of time, not in the actual lineup but hypothetically, why would someone NOT choose the V8 model over the V6 providing they had similar cost and specs in a car like the Camaro, since GM is so good at getting power and MPG out of their V8's. Would people rather have the small V8 in an "uplevel RS" over the high powered V6? That is all. Insurance is the only one I can truely come up with. I seem to remember there being TONS of support for this here and on other boards through the years when most were still clueless about powertrains for the car. The new V6 might change the way V6 performance is looked at in musclecars, but maybe a small GM V8 could have also changed the way people look at V8's. Not as just expensive, high HP guzzlers, IMO better than the 4.6 GT ever could. I still think there's a market for that entry level V8, guess it's just not possible at this point in time.
There are plenty of cheap, low power V8s on the used market, btw.
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I'd like to see 2 V6's and 3 V8's basically, but from the last two pages I see that it just won't happen. A lower powered, good MPG, entry level V8 is now blasphemy in todays market.
BTW, what I said of having a V6 and V8 that basically performed somewhat the same was a hypothetical question. What I meant was, if you gave the choice ahead of time, not in the actual lineup but hypothetically, why would someone NOT choose the V8 model over the V6 providing they had similar cost and specs in a car like the Camaro, since GM is so good at getting power and MPG out of their V8's. Would people rather have the small V8 in an "uplevel RS" over the high powered V6? That is all. Insurance is the only reason I can come up with. I seem to remember there being TONS of support for this here and on other boards through the years when most were still clueless about powertrains for the car. The new V6 might change the way V6 performance is looked at in musclecars, but maybe a small GM V8 could have also changed the way people look at V8's. Not as just expensive, high HP guzzlers, IMO better than the 4.6 GT ever could have. I still think there's a market for an entry level V8, you said you'd like that yourself, guess it's just not possible at this point in time.
BTW, what I said of having a V6 and V8 that basically performed somewhat the same was a hypothetical question. What I meant was, if you gave the choice ahead of time, not in the actual lineup but hypothetically, why would someone NOT choose the V8 model over the V6 providing they had similar cost and specs in a car like the Camaro, since GM is so good at getting power and MPG out of their V8's. Would people rather have the small V8 in an "uplevel RS" over the high powered V6? That is all. Insurance is the only reason I can come up with. I seem to remember there being TONS of support for this here and on other boards through the years when most were still clueless about powertrains for the car. The new V6 might change the way V6 performance is looked at in musclecars, but maybe a small GM V8 could have also changed the way people look at V8's. Not as just expensive, high HP guzzlers, IMO better than the 4.6 GT ever could have. I still think there's a market for an entry level V8, you said you'd like that yourself, guess it's just not possible at this point in time.
If you made a small V8 that made the same power, got the same fuel economy and cost the same as a high performance V6 I do not think you would have any problems selling it. I think most car buyers might actually use those EPA fuel economy number things they put on the window. The problem is that there probably is a small fuel economy penalty and there is more cost. If the entry V8 isn't going to sell in numbers that might affect CAFE, it probably isn't worth the money to engineer and certify in the first place because it won't make that money back. At that point you hope that you can place the buyers that wanted such a motor into a V6 or the SS. There probably will only be a handful of people left that wouldn't take either and in the grand scheme it is alright not to make those sales because you came out ahead in profit.
Last edited by HAZ-Matt; May 22, 2008 at 11:21 AM.
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You don't have to tell us you don't understand why people won't choose it. We know you don't understand why.
Try leaving a forum devoted to Chevys and visiting one devoted to many makes. If you're registered at Offtopic go visit their "Driven" subforums.
After you hear someone dismiss the Z06 C6 because it has pushrods and state that they bought a slower car for more money because it's "better", you'll understand why a 300 horse OHC V6 makes more sense than a 320 horse OHV V8 to a manufacturer that desperately needs conquest sales.
I don't want to be mean, but GM can't afford to build Z28.com's dream Camaro. They need to build a dream car for the pizza delivery guy looking to graduate from college and trade in his Scion.
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However, people who buy V8s today are doing so due to either being a luxury car status or they are doing it as performance car enthusiasts.
If you don't have any data, figures, or even examples to prove your position, the last and weakest (and to be honest, the most childish) way to make a point that doesn't exist is to make the other person prove it doesn't. Basically, it uses false logic in a logical way.
If "mid-level" V8s sold to regular buyers, there is no reason on the face of the planet that GM (or even Ford or Chrysler, let alone any import brand that offers V8s in their cars) would offer this. However, there isn't an automaker that does.
Fact is that everyone has done research on this. Everyone came to the same conclusions. Ford could have easily put a weaker "mid-grade V8" in the Mustang, right out of the Town Car-Crown Vic. Yes, they actually studied it some time ago. The result? Buyers would avoid it in favor of the regular V8.
Mustang V8s come in 2 versions: Affordable High Performance, and Open-your-wallet-and-pay High Performance. Ditto Chrysler. Ditto Mercedes. Ditto BMW. Now, even Lexus.
On a related note, performance buyers simply do not want their cars stripped or basic. This is backed by sales figures.
The Mustang GTS was a SN95 version of the Mustang LX. Never took off, and the model was cancelled.
The worse selling V8 powered LS1 4th gen F-body? The cheap Formula Firebird and the no-to-no optioned Camaro Z28.
There is no end to what many people (including yourself) strongly believe to be true. Personally, I believe the Camaro & Mustang should be Cobalt sized, packed with 300 horses, and take on cars like the Eclipse and would sell like gangbusters. However, unlike you, it seems I can count. I pull up the sales figures of the Mustang and look at not just the Eclipse, but also the Accord coupe, the G35 coupe, and others and see that Mustang is rolling over most all those other car's sales COMBINED!!!..... and I withdrawal my opinion since it doesn't hold up.
You need to realize the same, my friend.
Pull up the numbers to support your view, or all you're doing is blowing smoke.
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Just take a good look at this thread from start to finish.
CamaroZ28.com is probally stuffed full of the most rabid, pro-V8 crowd of any website on the internet. Yet.....
...look at how many people here will readily accept a great performing V6!
There are those who personally prefer a V8, and clearly state that it's their personal preference. I'm not talking about the people living in some alternate universe who still somehow believe that a mid-level V8 is going to outsell a great V6, or that today the public at large still has a facination with V8 engines.
I wrote a thread a long time ago on how I felt that enthusiasts ruined the 4th gen Camaro. How these people hijacked what Camaro really was (a car for a wide variety of people) and turned it into a no compromise, no excuses car.... which promptly failed so miserably that when it died, it stayed dead for over half a dozen years, and we're still waiting for it to return.
What excites me about this new Camaro is that GM seems to have learned it's lesson, and not letting the clueless crazies dictate what Camaro should be. Letting Camaro return to the car us older people remember it to be.
Any idiot can make a car that goes fast. Add horsepower. Go home.
But it takes real effort and comittment to make a car appeal to a wide swath of the buying public. It has to be practical. It has to be well made. It has to be fun to drive. It can be quick, but it can NOT scare the living daylights out of the average driver. It has to offer more value than it's competition. And most of all, it has to be a car that can stand on it's own merits, even without the most powerful engine option. The 4th gen was NOT that way. The 5th gen by every account is.
The performance of the V6 by every account I've read or heard so far is amazing (note... the lack of the disqualifier: "..for a V6"!). I'm getting the feeling that instead of a base afterthought and a hairy knuckled V8, we're also getting a car that betters a G37 coupe at a smaller price, better mileage, and better performance.... yet at a slightly lower weight (so much for calling the Camaro a bulky pig, huh? ).
I can easily see myself getting a V6 6 speed manual Camaro if it's at least as quick as the LT1 was (which the LS1 was barley quicker than till well over 60mph).
I've been bidding my time waiting for the Holden Ute to show up. If GM does just one thing, you can count me in as a almost certain V6 Camaro buyer.... just one thing.....
NO SPEED GOVERNOR!!!!!!!!
With over 300 horsepower from the DI V6, that's going to be a nearly 160 mph V6.
Can't find anything wrong with that!
CamaroZ28.com is probally stuffed full of the most rabid, pro-V8 crowd of any website on the internet. Yet.....
...look at how many people here will readily accept a great performing V6!
There are those who personally prefer a V8, and clearly state that it's their personal preference. I'm not talking about the people living in some alternate universe who still somehow believe that a mid-level V8 is going to outsell a great V6, or that today the public at large still has a facination with V8 engines.
I wrote a thread a long time ago on how I felt that enthusiasts ruined the 4th gen Camaro. How these people hijacked what Camaro really was (a car for a wide variety of people) and turned it into a no compromise, no excuses car.... which promptly failed so miserably that when it died, it stayed dead for over half a dozen years, and we're still waiting for it to return.
What excites me about this new Camaro is that GM seems to have learned it's lesson, and not letting the clueless crazies dictate what Camaro should be. Letting Camaro return to the car us older people remember it to be.
Any idiot can make a car that goes fast. Add horsepower. Go home.
But it takes real effort and comittment to make a car appeal to a wide swath of the buying public. It has to be practical. It has to be well made. It has to be fun to drive. It can be quick, but it can NOT scare the living daylights out of the average driver. It has to offer more value than it's competition. And most of all, it has to be a car that can stand on it's own merits, even without the most powerful engine option. The 4th gen was NOT that way. The 5th gen by every account is.
The performance of the V6 by every account I've read or heard so far is amazing (note... the lack of the disqualifier: "..for a V6"!). I'm getting the feeling that instead of a base afterthought and a hairy knuckled V8, we're also getting a car that betters a G37 coupe at a smaller price, better mileage, and better performance.... yet at a slightly lower weight (so much for calling the Camaro a bulky pig, huh?
).I can easily see myself getting a V6 6 speed manual Camaro if it's at least as quick as the LT1 was (which the LS1 was barley quicker than till well over 60mph).
I've been bidding my time waiting for the Holden Ute to show up. If GM does just one thing, you can count me in as a almost certain V6 Camaro buyer.... just one thing.....
NO SPEED GOVERNOR!!!!!!!!
With over 300 horsepower from the DI V6, that's going to be a nearly 160 mph V6.
Can't find anything wrong with that!
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Because they're an import buyer considering their first american car and their shopping list begins with "sporty coupe", moves on to "good mileage" and "OHC", and ends with "no gas sucking V8".
You don't have to tell us you don't understand why people won't choose it. We know you don't understand why.
Try leaving a forum devoted to Chevys and visiting one devoted to many makes. If you're registered at Offtopic go visit their "Driven" subforums.
After you hear someone dismiss the Z06 C6 because it has pushrods and state that they bought a slower car for more money because it's "better", you'll understand why a 300 horse OHC V6 makes more sense than a 320 horse OHV V8 to a manufacturer that desperately needs conquest sales.
I don't want to be mean, but GM can't afford to build Z28.com's dream Camaro. They need to build a dream car for the pizza delivery guy looking to graduate from college and trade in his Scion.
You don't have to tell us you don't understand why people won't choose it. We know you don't understand why.
Try leaving a forum devoted to Chevys and visiting one devoted to many makes. If you're registered at Offtopic go visit their "Driven" subforums.
After you hear someone dismiss the Z06 C6 because it has pushrods and state that they bought a slower car for more money because it's "better", you'll understand why a 300 horse OHC V6 makes more sense than a 320 horse OHV V8 to a manufacturer that desperately needs conquest sales.
I don't want to be mean, but GM can't afford to build Z28.com's dream Camaro. They need to build a dream car for the pizza delivery guy looking to graduate from college and trade in his Scion.
Last edited by IZ28; May 23, 2008 at 01:12 AM.
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I agree. It got me thinking...
Check this poll here...
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=607527
(No threadjack intended)
Check this poll here...
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=607527
(No threadjack intended)
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Again, I'm not sure you are even tuned into the same conversation we're having here.
We're talking about a V6 Camaro that probally outperforms an LT1, and comes pretty close to acceleration of an LS1, and might actually beat it over a challenging road course.
We're also talikng about a V6 Camaro that's going to be cheaper to insure than a V8, will get better gas mileage than most of the high performance four cylinder imports, let alone most import V6s.
The whole level of the game has been raised in the last 10 years. And an LT1 is obsolete.
If you want to compare the V6 to something...compare it to the Z28/SS. If you're somebody who want a sports car, or a fast car, or a Camaro...why would you buy the V6?
The V8 is always going to be the way to go. And, no, the V6 will not beat it on a road course.
I mean, if you want good fuel economy and want to save money...don't buy a sports car. Again, I'm sure people will buy them. But that doesn't mean it makes sense. People also buy Porsche SUV's and Ferrari's with automatics. That makes about as much sense as a Camaro with the lowline engine.