Denial.

 

I guess we'll see...
What is the specifics of the 5th gen setup??
Maybe I missed it?...Has that been released?

I hope they don't ride like "the old ones" either, buckboards...and having twice the power now, and speed, I'm sure plays alot into how "tossable" they are.

Somehow I've never seen the 4th gen as a Large anything...except comapred to a CRX maybe?
I deliberately didn't buy one after test driving one. The seats were small waisted, the visibilty poor, seating position too laid back...except for the long, empty overhangs, I would never call it large.

 

"Cheap" compared to themselves? Or "cheap" compared to the Mustang?

The Mustang has been the sales champion, right? (just like the F-150)

WHY do you figure the "cheap" Camaros didn't sell, but all of the Mustangs did (and still do)???

I would guess it has to do with the fact that those who ACTUALLY bought Camaros (in particular, the "non-cheap" ones) are more enthusiasts, vs. the Mustang's target audience which is everybody else .

But maybe I'm completely wrong?!

You and I (and others) may agree wholeheartedly that the Camaro is/was the better performance "bang-for-the-buck", but somewhere within GM (I believe) is where the lack of sales problem started, and I think it came down to a couple key issues:
- price
- marketing (or lack thereof)

Up until 2002, when the F-bodies were still being produced, I found it pretty rare to actually see an F-body sitting on a GM lot. And if there was, that's what it would be ... "an" F-body, not a row of them like Mustangs at the Ford dealership.

Anyway, perhaps I'm getting off track. While we can debate all day on how much more performance/content/value you may be getting with the new Camaro vs. the Mustang, I do think GM has to price it right, or I think the Camaro could see the same fate it did before .

(but this does not change my vote from the fact that weight concerns me more personally, as I am less concerned over a ~few bucks difference between Camaro/Mustang, as I would never consider buying a Mustang anyways )

 

Interesting that your link from media.gm.com shows that you are correct, whereas my link from the same website shows that I am correct. I did my research, found the information I expected to find, confirmed that it was from a reputable source, and posted accordingly. I wonder what's going on there?

If you read the post right before yours, you'll see that I am not forgetting that.

 

From what I have been told by a BMW engineer, the dial out of lively feel was concious. That is to say, as more folks were looking at BMW they were looking for more lux than sport in a car. Thus, the softening or rates for springs and dampers.

I had a Saturn Aura as my rental ride for the GM/Camaro Nats at Carlisle. It's a very nice handling car, especially if you consider I'm a Z06 road racing guy. I also spen some time with a Malibu LT and it's a ditto on nice choice and execution with the suspension. None of the ugly behaviors I associate with a front wheel car reared their heads, as I expected, and I was impressed.

I'm holding off on any prejudgement on how the 5th gen Camaro will handle until I drive it. I do believe that there has been an evolutionay process in customer taste and expectation for handling and tolerance for a bit more stiffness in ride. Also there have been strides made in isolation of NVH which allows higher durameter ratings for bushings and mounts.

Now this might or might not be a good example of unexpected gains where they wouldn't be the first place to look for them... The Corvette racing program picked up 3 seconds per lap at Sebring when they switched wheel brands some years back. Same size wheels, same size tires. The reason? More rigidity in the alloy and forging process. The original wheel maker followed suit and made the changes to meet the challenge. The original brand made it back on the car after a time.

Another area where we may see more and more handling improvement in the future is in differential design and control. Electronic control to be precise. Tightening and loosening the lock/unlock of the diff can make huge differences in under/oversteer and corner entry, mid corner, and corner exit behavior, particularly if you can adjust the amount of lock-unlock on the on/off throttle. Not to mention launch.

Weight is a factor. Particularly in expectations, less so when results are compared between two different cars.

Anecdotal as this next example may be, it is food for some mitigation in pre-conclusions. When the 2001 Z06 came out we can all agree it was a good handling car. In a magazine test though, it was bettered in lap time by the heavier Cobra-R which also didn't have double wishbones all around either. Nope,,,Strut front, IRS rear. Supposedly the HP @385 was the same. Z06 weight-3130 Cobra-R weight- 3589 ...

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/.../features.html

The reasons? IMO, tires mostly, car setup, underestimated HP, the nature of the track. Is the Corvette the "better" car? Yep. My point is that theres more to it than weight when you put one car against the other...

BTW, the '02 Z06 was a better handler, and the '04 got the major damper improvement that held through the generation.

 

Of course.

Weight is a huge component however. From the sound of it, the Cobra R was a handful to drive. Even with those super-duper sticky BFG g-force KD's.


The thing is, I have already pre-judged, (or just plain judged) the Camaro. I have taken all my life experiences, combined with all that I've seen, heard and know or think I know about the car itself, gotten a good taste of the G8 GT with the 19" wheel performance pkg - and made a judgement. Is that fair? Don't know, but that's how judgements are made.

My thinking is that it'll be a nice car. But not one I'd want to buy. And that part disappoints me greatly.

 

Nobody's saying that it won't have any effect on those things - but it will have a negative effect on the car compared to what? A 40k BMW, and a "what-if" Alpha car? You can say that it would be more fuel efficient and handle better if it was lighter. You could say that about every car.

I can't speak for everyone, so what I'M saying is that the car isn't likely to die again because of its weight; which is what you keep putting forward. Price has a more direct and immediate effect on buyers. There's only so much wiggle-room in terms of bang for your buck, before they step back and say, "damn; $4,000 more when I'm satisfied with this other car? Forget it."

All it has to do to survive is to be a better vehicle than it's competitors in performance, mpg, etc. But first and foremost it must have a reasonable price. If it doesn't have that, it won't go anywhere. You'll have the enthusiasts like us who buy it because we recognize what a great car it is (assuming for arguments sake that it's a lighter car), but everyone else, who doesn't care like we do, will be buying Mustangs, and Challengers -- even though they suck in comparison -- because they're cheaper.

What GM needs to do is make this car the best it can be, by PRICING it right, and let it outperform its competitors. THEN they can switch platforms or whatever they need to do to shave off a couple hundred.

But you can't keep comparing it to itself; "What it could have been"...there's always room for improvement, it never ends.

Anyways...this whole argument is moot, right? Because the question is what matters most to you and I, personally. Not what matters to the car's success. So it's a preference thing. My answer is: yeah, I'd love a nimble little car...but I want to be able to afford it to first.

hmf. We'll see.

 

According to the test article, the Viper was the unruly child of the bunch.

It isn't about "fair" in the final analysis, Charlie. That is, unless we are speaking about being "fair" to yourself. I believe you will drive the car when you can, preconcieved notions not withstanding. Then you decide. Sounds fair to me.

I wouldn't pull the trigger on something used at this point, were I you. It's really not a long wait, and there will be more used stuff at that point should you wait. I'll tell you this much, the 5th gen Camaro really looks good in person. I really like the interior as well. Just one fellow's opinion...

 

Excellent post ... great points .

That changes nothing about our "personal" wants/hopes for the car, but it is certainly the recipe for sales success .

But comparing the 5th-gen to what "it could/should have been" is a lot more interesting!!!

 

I find certain elements of this concern regarding price interesting.

I've been hanging around Camaros and Camaro people for a loooong time, and have really never seen such a serious concern with it. Not that everyone had bundles of cash to burn, but because everyone always had the assumption that any new Camaro would be a good value.

I think that NOW though, we have a paradigm shift in what is considered a 'good value' by Camaro owners. I mean, it's been 7 MY's since a new one was sold and maybe 10-12 MY's since it sold well. So as a result, we've got a generation or two of Camaro owners who've spent 5 or 10 grand on their last or current Camaro. That there is their reference point.

See where I'm going with this?

 

Well, luckily (I guess), I'm extremely picky regarding the CTS-V's I've checked out. So it may be awhile before I find one I'd be will to trade my CTS for.

Also, in the early '80's, I vowed never to buy a Crossfire Z/28, since Chevy couldn't even manage to certify a stick with it. But what-do-you-know, 25 years later, there's one in my garage. With T-tops even.

 

And if you hung around a bunch of Mustang enthusiasts, you'd probably find the same attitude (esp. the GT500 owners). When the company builds a product you like and want, it doesn't really matter what it costs.

Except enthusiasts aren't the people who are going to be buying the Camaro in droves, and at the end of the day, the almighty dollar will reign .

And heck, I know this was already mentioned earlier, but look at this enthusiasts' poll ... 2/3 are concerned with price!! We're hard-pressed to get enthusiasts to be concerned over weight! Good luck expecting Joe Q Public to even CONSIDER the weight of the car!!

(and here's a fun tid-bit for you ... I strongly support the weight concerns NOW, but when I bought my '02 Z28 brand new 6 years ago (tomorrow! June 26th! ) I didn't know what it weighed (although I figured it was probably ~3500 lbs) nor did I really care )

 

Thanks you. And it sure is! The 5thgen isn't out yet and more than a few people are already looking towards the 6th generation.


Not really.

I think I do, but I don't want to stick my foot into my mouth.....

 

Well...perhaps that suggests that, beyond any protestations, you are a pragmatist. "Never" might be "maybe" in the final analysis. No shame in that.

I haven't given up on you.

 

That is funny .

But I'm really looking forward to the 7th-gen . All electric, baby! It's gonna be mad fast, yo! 35,000 watts of pure electric performance!! It'll be shocking!!