That is the most ridiculous photoshop I have ever seen.

 

Man, I hate to resurrect this thread, but what gets to me about the whole firebird thing is that every time somebody 'chops a new version of what they think the new bird should look like, it starts the whole process over again. Why don't people just get it? The Firebird isn't going to come back...not when the Camaro does at least. Maybe it will make it's way back sometime farther off in the future, but not right now. (Scott never said keep the faith on the Firebird did he....didn't think so)

 

yeah but if ****ing sucks that us firebird enthusiasts get the shaft, its ****ing gay, you cant have a camaro running alongside a GTO, it just isnt the same

 

Chevy will go 6-7 years without something to fill in for Camaro. A couple of years (tops) without a GTO is nothing.

You wouldn't touch GTO with a 10 foot pole, fair enough. Other people are crawling over the GTO because it's a better buy than the top line WS6 Trans Am was.

As far as poor sales go, compare the GTO sales to top line Trans Am sales then get back to me.


I think we've been down this road at least a dozen times per month, and since we seem to have plenty of newbies, and since it's easier to beat a dead horse than use a search button, here's the basic points:

1) It's assinine to compare GTO and it's sales to Firebird & it's sales.

Why? Firebird is a full line pony car, and GTO is a fully equpted Grand Tourer.
If you want to compare a $30K+ fully loaded, well made, IRS, 400 horse GTO to a $30K+ fully loaded, 90s era quality, live axle, 340 horse Firebird Trans Am WS6, go for it.


2) Pontiac is no longer going to overlap Chevrolet...especially with identical sporty coupes.

Why? First, the coupe market isn't large enough to support 2 models. Chevrolet is the only GM division large enough to make a low cost sporty RWD coupe profitable. 4th gen Firebird used up a disproportionate amount of resources (count the number of front & rear bumpers, hoods, and taillights the Firebird had compared to the higher volume Camaro.... plus the resources spent making the Firebird different from Camaro for the number of Firebirds sold). It also costs more to market the average car than it cost to develop the Pontiac Solstice.


3) Trans Am is DEAD.

Why? When Pontiac Trans Am 1st came out, GM planned to make it a very limited production car (less than 1K per year) so they negotiated royalties (around $5-10 per car) with the SCCA, which under the circumstances was a pretty decent amount that turned into a windfall in the late 70s when there were 100K Trans Ams per year coming off assembly lines. GM tried to pull out in '83 when the new 3rd gen top Firebird was going to be called T/A, but changed their minds when they were still going to be liable for payments.

Now that continuous use of the "Trans Am" name has ended, any future use will have to be renegotiated with SCCA. The SCCA isn't stupid and GM isn't going to pay someone else if it isn't going to make a difference to their bottom line. Given the name value, SCCA would be pretty retarded if they settled for anything less than 150-200 per car, and GM would be pretty dumb watching $3,000,000+ floating out of their pockets from say 20,000 Trans Ams sales when they can sell the same amount under a name they own (say GTO) and use that $3 million plus to help cover the cost of IRS, or better materials, or even just to put towards profit.


4) Finally, Firebird isn't coming back.

Why? General Motors Product Vice Chairman Bob Lutz (who happens to decide which cars go up for approval) said so. Former Pontiac General Manager, Lynn Myers (who lobbies for what Pontiac needs) says so. Reinterated by John Larson, Pontiac's current General Manager and other GM people over the past number of years. Pontiac has moved upmarket and GTO represents what the top sporty Pontiac will be, while Solstice carries the lower priced end. The final chance of a "Camaro based" Firebird was shot down once and for all (if the dozens of other references to this were missed over the past few years) in his question & answer period in Geneva last March.


5) Just because something contrary appears in a magazine doesn't mean squat.

Why? The purpose of stories in a magazine is to sell the magazine... and consequently sell advertising. To make you pick up that mag. I've had stories "massaged" for dramatic effect. A few years ago, a car magazine ran a story (with drawings) about a new Zeta Chevelle. If you actually read alot of these "Firebird" or "Trans Am" stories, there isn't an ounce of meat to them. Instead of something solid, you read lots of "maybe" or "possibly" or "if we demand loud enough", but not a lick of "Our sources say.... will happen" or "So-and-so indicated that GM is [b]studying.....". There's a reason you don't see that. But yet, post a few pretty photoshops, add in alot of fluff, then suddenly we have a new thread from someone using an article as "Proof" that a Firebird "could" be done.... never mind that everyone involved says it isn't going to happen.



Once upon a time, the sporty coupe market was large enough for everyone and their brother. We had AMC Javelin, Ford Mustang, Mercury Cougar, Dodge Challenger, Plymouth Barracuda, Chevrolet Camaro, and Pontiac Firebird. Javelin, & the Chrysler twins died in 74. Ford managed to keep twins Mustang & Cougar around till '87. GM ended up killing both F-cars.

If you ever see a Firebird again, it will:

A. NOT be based on Camaro.
B. NOT be out this decade.... model year or calender year.
C. Most certainly, as sure as anything can be, NOT have a Trans Am version.

This post comes from someone who's favorite car as a young teen in the 70s was a 77-79 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am, so don't get your panties in a bunch thinking I'm a Firebird hater. I'm posting what the facts are, giving every benefit of doubt in favor of things changing, and also being realistic.

 

The bottom line the new camaro is sexy right up until the front 1 foot. Then it's too much *** that I won't buy it.
I've given it some months now and I still can't come to terms with the front 1 foot.
Come to think of it how can two nearly identical cars look so much different. The 77-78 TA is one of the sexiest things ever. But some of the second gen Camaro's are the ugliest things ever.
Same thing here. Just a few minor body panels have managed to make a cool car more 'regular' boring and ugly.
I don't buy a sports car to fit in. I buy it to stand out.
Lucky for GM I am sure there's plenty who will buy it to fit in while feeling like they are special
God knows it worked for the overly plan boring non-sporty mustang for years and years.

 

Looks are subjective; and based on polls and opinions - most like it. I do.

 

that sucks, i hate the new gtos, why the hell does pontiac have to try to be cadillac, wtf, i dont even know how to spell cadillac lol

 

I actually like the GTO now, a lot more than I did when it first came out looking like a dressed up grand prix. It still looks the same, but I've gained a lot more respect for it. I really hate to see all these guys bashing the car just because it's taken the place of a discontinued car. The GTO is a great car for it's segment...I sat in the one at the Atlanta show, it's got a really nice feel to it. It looks good from the front, looks good from the back, looks good from the side and looks damn good under the hood. Who can complain about 400 horsepower? I like it and I don't discredit it just because it's filling the seat that the T/A-Firebird used to fill.

 

I don't pretend to know what the General is going to do. However they should consider

1. Pontiac Buyers and Chevy Buyers are NOT the same. I think GM knows this, and that's why they have different divisions, to appeal to different segments and personality types. Otherwise why not change the name to "General Chevy" and call it a day?

2. Even here on a Camaro site, demand for the Pontiac Firebird is strong. Someone will meet this demand. Will it be GM, or someone else like Nissan?

3. On the issue of the coupe market being too small, I have two points-

A. The same thing was said about the 2 seat roadster market, yet the Solstice and Sky are sold out, GM can't build them fast enough to keep up with this "niche" market. Solstice ALONE has outsold the pereniall kingpin, Mr Miata, by 2 to 1 in several months.

B. Bob Lutz himself said it best in his recent Autoweek interview. http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...1/TOC01ARCHIVE
While the old GM was saying "no one wants rear wheel drive cars anymore" Mercedes and BMW were laughing all the way to the bank. Not only were people still buying RWD cars, but they were paying a premium for them. Then came the Chrysler 300 and the flood gates were open.

I think Wagoner and Lutz have been clear that "its about the design, stupid!" I believe a well designed Camaro sister car with innovative PONTIAC design and styling would sell plenty of cars to more than justify its existence. If Camaro can sell 100k (when was the last time it did that?) Then you better DAMN WELL BET that the Firebird would do 60k.

On the issue of the SCCA and the Trans Am name- It was $5 per car. FIVE DOLLARS. Can you get out of Starbucks for less than that? Even if it did cost an arbitrary number like $200 per car. Would you recommend that GM pay the $200 in order to MAKE $3000? If you answered no, go to the back of the class. You just failed Economics 1.

Just like there is a little Corvette in every Chevy, there is a little Firebird in every Pontiac. But right now, the Pontiac line-up is like a bunch of **** talking little brothers, with no big brother to back it up.. It pains me to type that but its in ther context of the absence of the Firebird...

These are just a FEW points that I would make for the return of the Firebird. None of this means GM is going to do anything about it

 

[QUOTE=Hoodshaker]
But right now, the Pontiac line-up is like a bunch of **** talking little brothers, with no big brother to back it up.. QUOTE]


Does this guy not realize there is a 400 horsepower pontiac that can serve just fine as a big brother??? IT'S THE GTO!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I see the point you are trying to make... But seeing as how there is no chance of anyone else producing a "Firebird" and nothing is gonna be closer to one then a Camaro... I don't quite see how thats possible.
[QUOTE]


They do that anyway.
Mercedes could get the pinto stats, make a carbon copy of it save a three pointed star and people would be all over it. Additionally, if you were to do a survey of mercedes owners and LX car owners, I don't think either of those would rank RWD as their number one concern.


GTO?

 

IMO the GTO is a fantastic car that is fairly faithful to the original GTO formula. Its a great performance value. For the last two years I have been trying to convince myself to buy one... I have seen some fantastic deals on the car pass by, new and used, but I still can't get myself to pull the trigger. Why? The current GTO simply does not evoke the visceral emotion that the Firebird does. Period. Build quality, refinement, interior design, IRS are all great. However the car just doesn't strike fear into the hearts of grown men the way the Trans Am does. There are some nice grills/bumpers/spoilers available to make it look better, but the beauty of the T/A is that it never needed any of that. It was born wicked, lived wicked, and died wicked. 400hp or not, the new GTO still a dead heat with my '99 T/A (when it was stock) in the 1/4 mile. No open roof options at all? Sunroof, t-tops, something? My T/A is 7 years old, and I still get a silly grin across my face when I walk toward it in a parking lot.

GTO and Firebird are not the same formula.

My point with the RWD example is simple-just because GM says the "market is too small" for a given segment-that doesn't make it so. As Bob Lutz said " If your product is a blockbuster hit, it creates a segment"

 

Thats true. Much in the same way Chevy and Pontiac aren't or shouldn't be the same formula. I don't think a skin change justifies Camaro/Firebird or Cobalt/G5... If they had the same bones... Plus different skin and were empirically BETTER in a couple ways... Faster, more refined more options, or some combination of those, I would love a Firebird/G5.

That however would catapult Firebirds price out of the reach of those who want it and compete with GTO. I don't think Chevy would allow Pontiac to make a Firebird that was really BETTER than Camaro... So I see no way of doing it unless you are creating the 4th gen scenario all over again.

 

They are still studying the market and such.....

 

If you are regarding the 2002 Firebird sales, I think it is a pretty poor comparison. The GTO is still a relatively new model, and the Firebird by that time was 9 years old. Compare how a brand new for 93 Firebird sold to a GTO. There is no comparison. A brand new, well designed Firebird is likely to bury the GTO in sales.