Guy,

Yes, you are (as always) historically dead on; my comments were in jest..... but I am serious about the ability of the American Spirit to overcome in nearly any situation. It becomes a question of desire and motivation, weather it is in the market place relating to market share, or (in my off-handed comment) the battlefield. I will be the first to agree that from a historical standpoint (are we still talking about a TA in this thread? ) it took Pearl Harbor to rally the nation. Not sure what it would take today to wake up the nation on American goods..... alot of folks that are paid alot more than me are trying to figure that out too!

IMO the American auto industry gets no credit where credit is due for the advances in products in recent years- folks simply accept that German or Japanese products are superior. Honestly, in a FEW areas- they are, but domestics seem to be adressing that. I am pulling for GM in their quest to reclaim their reputation as the GLOBAL automotive leader, which seems to be underway. Without starting yet another discussion about Lutz, he apears to be on the offensive to do just that, backing it up with products that deliver. GM seems to (finally) have the goal to BE the benchmark, rather than trying to catch-up. I guess that's why I own 2 GM autos now, and intend to eventually replace them with newer GMs if they continue on their current path.

As for the TA and Pontiac, I still stand by the comment that Pontiac is the perfect division to take on the sport-lux market (BMW specifically) head-2-head. With determined engineering (INSIDE and out) and support from GM, they could reclaim their reputation and dominate the market. It seems that the TA would be redundant and take market-share from the Camaro (yea, I know that has been beat to death as well), which is my assumption as to why it will not be built. It does make more since to build an upscale 2-door powerhouse (with more interior room that the Camaro) and call it something other than Firebird- like GTO maybe! I'm not trying to start a flame-war with the Firebids folks here- I always liked the TA, but GM needs to build a diffrent car, not just a re-badged Chevy which is what the TA always was IMHO.

I say to hell with the Germans and the Japanese, but we need the hardware to back it up..... sort of like 60 or so years ago

Now, back to your regularly scheduled (TA based discussion) program.....

Allen

 

Please God no................

I liked the History Channel better

 

This is 100% dead on. Good post!

 

No need.

Double check your sources, use the simplest language possible, & learn where the spellcheck button is.

Class dissmissed.


They aren't superior on a dollar for dollar basis. Camarys run up to Cadillac price levels and have you seen BMW's prices lately?

The intention isn't to take on BMW head to head... that's Cadillac.

The intention is to make Pontiac the "American Driver's Machine". A representiative of the best performing and handling US cars the way BMW has the worldwide reputation of being a top handling car.

No one with a passing grip on reality is going to cross shop a GXP Grand Prix with an M5 BMW, but the GXP creates new levels of handling & performance as a US made car, let alone a big FWD vehicle. That car is the basis of where Pontiac is headed.

Firebird fans tend to be even more rabid than Camaro fans. All the points regarding the last Firebirds and why it's not sustainable in a new incarnation is going to be denied and debated till doomsday, even if you post numbers, statistics, & facts. I'd love to see another Firebird Trans Am on the level of the 70's cars. But unless the small coupe market explodes again, that ain't gonna happen.

I don't like it any better than anyone else, but at least we got a small, sporty, rear drive, performance car back under the GM banner. Does it really matter which division sells it?

 

To all you people knocking the Firebird fans who won't accept that their car is gone & not coming back, I beg you to indulge in some understanding of their position! Ask yourself this, what would you do if the position were reversed? Would you just shrug your shoulders & say "Well, when the time comes to replace my Camaro I'll just have to go to the Pontiac dealer for a Firebird." OR... would you shake your fist @ the sky & rail against God for the injustice of it all! Would you not grasp @ ANY straw, no matter how slim, that suggested that the Camaro MIGHT, SOMEDAY come back? I suspect that if it had been the Firebird to come back & not the Camaro the bitching & moaning on here would have been epic. And it would have been tolerated because this is, after all, a Camaro forum. So before you flame those poor Firebird loving bastards, please try to have a little sympathy. Okay?

 

THANK YOU MAXIMUM BOB!!!!!!!!!

They tend to forget there are people just a passionate about the Firebird. Not the Camaro, Not the Camaro and Firebird , Just the Firebird!!!!!! I personally love the Camaro Concept , I might even buy one. Part of me will always wonder what if ? You guys that just want us Firebird people to shutup and deal with it , cant help but admit we're getting the stinky end of the stick.

 

I think Camaro fans understand all too well....







They did it for four years.

But I really hate all the drawings in this thread. It would have been one thing if Camaro would have been truly retro and then you could have done a modern bird, which would have killed some overlap. As it is, I dont see any way to make a bird thats mechanically similiar without repeating the mistakes of the 4th gen.

 

Thanks maximum. I've owned a camaro and a firebird, and personally am a Firebird fan. Regardless of what the facts are, I'll always be pulling for another Firebird!

 

If the situation were reversed, I'd be visiting the Pontiac dealer to check out the Firebird instead of Camaro, and wouldn't give it a 2nd thought.

Why?
a) Camaro & Firebird have been the same car with just different skin since 1982. Made in the same plant on the same assembly line, with the profits going to the same company.

b) The new F-body design could have just as easily had a split grille as it has a bow tie, meaning if it was the 1st time seeing the end result, it would have been just as acceptable as a Firebird as it is a Camaro.

Sorry, but I really can't get spun up on which General Motors division sells a pony car. I also won't get excited over a name like Firebird especially if there's a Grand Tourer like GTO that will also be sitting in showrooms that could just as easily wear the Firebird name and the previous "Bird resembled a Corvette with an overdose of scoops and wings.

It's all the same batch of eggs. Can't see being upset about which side of the frying pan it came out of.

 

Yeah, no kidding.

 

Some Firebird people dont get excited over a Bland Grand tourer . I think your still missing the point. You think its just so easy to jump ship???? Nah

 

For what its worth, it wouldnt be easy for me to jump ship. I like Fire birds like the 88 1/2 the 78 67-69 and style of 98-02 though. But My heart is in the 69 Camaro though. It would be hard to put money down on anything else. I consider myself lucky that the concept is so close and even better in some ways.

On a side note, dont you see some 88 1/2 T/A in the front hood line the way it slopes down in the front? Maybe its just me but I do, and I like it.

 

first of all , as a newbie here, i would like to say hello all, nice to meet you. and second, i can't wait for the new camaro to come out in 2010. however the fact that that GM is killing the GTO is not going to help with the faithful arrowhead followers. now granted i have seen some nice 5th gen 'bird photochops, especially the black one in this thread, but GM would definitely have to raise the bar on it. when the camaro and firebird were first made together the camaro was the performance end of the stick ,with the bird being the handling end. granted GM has said no to the 'bird, however, i feel that it would be financially fessible to bring back the bird, as it will use the same platform, with only minor changes to front and rear fascia and tailllight sections, along with a different hood and different fenders for a more upscaled version like a new GTA model. regardless it is a shame to hear that they will not be bringing it back, but lets not forget they said the same thing in the past about the camaro. we will have to wait and see. i know i am saving right now for a 5th gen 'maro, and if bye some minute possibility that the planets align and bob lutz says "BUILD THE BIRD", YOU CAN BET YOUR FRIGGIN A** i will have both in my garage, right next to both my 3 gen birds.
'nuff said.

 

there will be no bird.
gto will be back.

 

i feel i must also add that, with pontiac losing the GTO even if only temporarily, it will need something to fill its market base for front engined rear wheel drive cars. me personally, i wouldn't touch the GTO with a 10 foot pole,
and if they do bring it back and it sells as bad as the 2005,2006 did, then they may have to bring back the firebird to keep some kind of foot in the front motor, rear drive pan. while i see a lot of good points from everyone here today, i still feel that GM should go ahead and make a 5th gen 'bird based on the new 'maro. the platform is there, and as for the market, well it would be in the same range as the camaro is. i mean hey some like the camaro name, others like the firebird badge, and i am willing to bet that if GM does not build a new bird there will be some business smart aftermarket company that will produce a firebird styled front fascia and rear taillight pan, along with aftermarket vented front fenders. the market is there, and as business GM should take full advantage of a platform sharing with the 2 cars like they have since its original inception. opinions aside gang, financially it would be beneficial and profitable if you think about it. the more you can get out of one design and raise your market share ,the better it is for you bottomline. i am no business man by anymeans, but i say go ahead and make it, there are just as many people crying for a 'bird as there are for the camaro. and when the GTO came out, from what i saw personally, there was nowhere near the reaction that the remote possibility of a new firebird has brought. but thats up to them, and up to us, as consumers, we need to try to influence the the supplyer to produce what we want by calling, writing , and generally showing a highly expressed interest and financially backed driven demand for the said product or there is no hope for us, so in essence, it is not truly up to GM as to wether they should make it, but up to us to show enough of a demand for it for them to bring it to us. how does everyone here feel about that??