JasonD

I think you confused me with someone else on that one or I just don't know how that applies to what I was trying to say.

I think you misunderstood. I am saying that a low percentage of 2010 Camaro owners will ever take their car to a track or a timed event or even care to.

I think you misunderstood my point on that also, but I am not convinced that it is by accident since there was more to my sentence than you referenced.

I modded my car for the same reasons most others do...for fun, to have a kick *** car, to show off, a hobby, whatever. You will note that I don't have any timeslips, either.

But we are not talking about JUST me or JUST you here. That's the point I am making.

What was referenced as coming off as condescending might now appear to be heading toward insulting to some. It is becoming clear that people who like the car are somehow accused of being wrong for doing so because others don't like the car.

Doug, I don't think you are willing to accept my point of view on this and you don't have to and I am okay with that even though I have accepted yours without consideration. Regardless, there is no way that trying to use my opinions to make yours fact will work because one difference in opinion doesn't invalidate the other.

Doug Harden

The 'rules of this contest say that the cars were 'stock' form from the factory...anyone can "change the suspension"...so results would be linear.

But we've already established that the front tires are too narrow, the caster cannot be changed w/o aftermarket parts, the suspension is too compliant and too many compromises were made in the handling department...and that the car makes good power (w/o adding another 200# on it's nose).....So we still have a few "problems" to "solve"....

Doug Harden

I understood perfectly...you're saying that it's OK to make many compromises in a car's handling, because most will never use the car's capabilities. I'm saying that accepting a car that is not the best in it's segment is why GM is in bankruptcy.

I quoted it in it's entirety...?!?

Oh...I see.....

Knew that...

Show me where I've said that I "don't like the car"....I'm fighting to make it better and I'm wrong?!?

No, you seem to be upset that I won't tow the company line and won't accept the status quo...and are trying to paint me as one who "doesn't like the car". If I truly didn't like it, I'd move on and wait for them to get it right in the next gen...or not.....but I've invested a ton of my life and efforts to support this car and just get tired of the same old "good enough" BS that got GM into recievership in the 1st place.

Never tried to do this, I simply quoted your comments to make my point more clear.

Seriously, if we can't even debate making the car better, then I'm in the wrong damned place.....that or just convince me that this model is as good as humanly possible to make it and I'll just keep driving my Corvette.....

JasonD

No, that is not what I am saying at all.

But your reply only addressed one portion of the quote. It doesn't really matter I suppose.

I didn't mean to imply you didn't like the car at all. I also didn't say the car was perfect in every way. In fact, I said that neither of us were wrong because we are offering our opinions, more or less.

I am not upset and I am not trying to make you accept anything. I just offered another point of view while also considering the point of view similar to yours. It is certainly not a big deal and nothing to take offense to. In fact, my previous post wasn't meant to even reference you directly.

msgZ28

Slightly off topic, but all I see from those results is this:
Damn! The little front wheel drive Mazdaspeed 3 is quicker than a WRX?! How the mighty have fallen.

Z284ever

There's a Latin expression: Res Ipsa Loquitur.
The thing speaks for itself.

Nope, this car is no corner carver. And for alot of people it doesn't have to be. On the other hand, there are also lots of people who are not necessarilly looking to turn a wheel in anger on a "racetrack", but find attributes like that appealing. Appealing enough to whip out the their checkbook . Even for street duty.

Anyhoo, I think it's important to keep discussions like these open and freeflowing. Because, one day Camaro sales will slow. And the last thing we need is Team Camaro saying, Hey man, what happened!?!? Didn't we give everyone EXACTLY what they wanted?

teal98

Your post was a nice summary of the issues, and I appreciated the lack of cheap shots and sarcasm.

teal98

The 2010 GT500 has been lauded as being a significant improvement over earlier models.

Clearly, a car like the M3 will appeal to you far more than the Camaro SS, and it is indeed significantly faster, in spite of having a little less power and a lot less torque. Charlie's Great Alpha Hope Camaro would presumably be close in size and weight to the M3, while still undercutting it be 30% or so in price (would be quite an accomplishment, it seems to me) and keeping the IRS.

It will be interesting to see how close the 2011 Mustang GT gets to the M3 on a smooth course where the live axle is not a problem, as they have nearly identical power and weight. I suppose we'll see in next year's Lightning Lap.

I wonder how many non-Track Pack cars Ford sells based on favorable magazine reviews of the Track Pack car. For my daily drives over pothole-filled California roads, a Track Pack is probably the wrong answer. What I'm really interested in is how much fun a car that I can live with might be.

One last side comment: the 370Z Nismo seems quite the underachiever. For a car with its power, weight, and spec, I should think it would be quite a lot quicker.

2010_5thgen

i did read this the other day. those are some seious contenders that are above the camaro. and the ones it beat arent to shabby either. the audi S4?! good job camaro. wonder how much better it would have done, had it just had different sway bars and lowered a bit..

Z284ever

Sure, I've got high hopes for the next one. But then again, I had high hopes for this one too, and it couldn't have missed the mark more for me personally - so I won't be holding my breath. If it happens, great, if it doesn't, I'll move on to something else.

Fbodfather

well -- I started to read thru this thread and wanted to hang myself........

Let's all take a breath, shall we?



First - the Camaro Team WANTS the car to be the best. Rest assured.

Let's take a walk down memory lane, shall we?

January 9, 2006 -- the Automotive world went nuts over the Camaro concept - but you will recall that we were told:
"Incredible design - but you guys will mess up the design and the production car will look nothing like this".........

I can assure you that there were may fistfights (ok - not fistfights -- but a lot of 'spirited discussion') over the design and engineering of this car........to make sure that the production car WOULD look like the concept.

We can argue all day long that the concept was 'misguided' in terms of size- but the bottom line is that the car is a rockstar on the road - like it or not.

Has the Camaro evolved? You betcha! Has it left some disappointed? One read of this website is all it takes to see that..........

But I digress...........

We showed the Concept - the world spoke -- we went to work........

......but then the world turned upside down -- and it resulted in a Chapter 11 filing by GM and Chrysler. (Ford would have been in the same boat, but they had the foresight to mortgage everything including the staplers on the desks prior to the credit market crashing)

The money to develop existing products and future products dried up.

You can be assured that this put a crimp on some of our 'offerings' (coughcoughtrackpackagecough) - (ahchoosneezeZ28sniff)

You may recall someone by the name of "Heinricy" - -well, I'm here to tell you that he was very much involved with the Camaro and especially the SS model.........

......now -- do you really think that HE doesn't understand what Camaro is and what it should offer?

This is the most researched Camaro ever -- but it's also important to understand that what 'was' supposed to be didn't necessarily happen all at once.........


The opera ain't over - -

Also: The team DOES know that sales will fall off as the car ages.........

Now -- can we all calm down? Believe me - I have yet to read anything on this site that I haven't heard in person.........

Chewbacca

Given the fact it was stuffed into the tire barrier due to brake fade / failure and therefore not able to finish as many laps as the others.... I must wholeheartedly agree.

Supposedly Nissan is changing pad compounds because of this.

jg95z28

Hasn't the word on the street been that a properly tuned alignment and rear sway bar goes along way to correct most of Camaro SS's handling woes?

Maybe I'm missing something however road course performance is a heck of a lot more "real world driving" for me that how well a car performs at WOT in a straight line or zipping around orange cones in a flat parking lot. (Not that I'm not in awe of guys with the talent and machines to achieve such feats.)

Chewbacca

Respectfully, I would argue that it is not.


How often do you drive 120 mph + on public roads?
Autocross top speeds are generally limited to that of most highways (55 - 65 mph).

How many times must you brake from 120 + on the street?
From 55 - 65?

Road courses are usually (not always) fairly smooth and wide.
Autocrosses are normally held on unprepped lots and feature bumps and narrower lanes just as you would encounter on the street.

Autocross values transitional ability, you know, like when a dog runs out in front of you or when someone darts out of a side street or suddenly changes lanes with no warning.
How many times do you have significant time to set up for these occurrences as you would on a road course?

How many times per day do you accelerate from ~40 mph to 140 when exiting a corner?
25 mph to 65 mph?


I could go on but you get the idea.

latinspice-94T/A

FWD cars have been handling quite well since the introduction of the CRX in the mid 80's...

I'm going nuts waiting for a BBB resolution to get rid of my GTO for something that is enjoyable in the mountainous twisties where I live... great on the highway though...