Josh, that's got to be the damnest question I've ever heard asked here.

It's also one of the most thought provoking one as well. This is exactly the question that Scott and all the other Camaro enthusiasts inside GM have had to find an answer to in order to convince the folks who are responsible for not only the survival of the business in near desparate times, but the lives of hundreds of thousands of people and a good chunk of the US economy as well. Money that could be far more useful in higher profit margin SUVs & Crossovers and even mid to upper level sedans.



I know there's a bit of a generation gap between Camaro lovers and typical buyers today around your age. Mustang has done a great job at bridging that gap, while Camaro hasn't. And that's the hard part.


Camaro's biggest problem is that it completely lost it's way & became a 4 passenger Corvette. It adopted it's wedge look, it's greenhouse, and the same focus on performance, but at the expense of it's bread and butter purpose. Cars like Mustang and Camaro gained their fame and fortune NOT around brute hoursepower and 160mph top speeds. It gained it's popularity in it's ability to be personalized. Ford kept this focus. GM did not.

What is it that all youth, regardless as to if they grew up in the 50s, 60s, 70, 80s, 90s, or today all have in common automotive-wise? They all have tight budgets and they all like to personalize. In the end, while the Mustang outsold both the Camaro & Firebird combined 2 to one, the other fact is that more men bought V6 Mustangs than bought all Camaros, let alone just LS1 F-bodies. Instead of recognizing this and pursuing the market, what was GM's Camaro guys response (echoed here by members almost weekly)???

Mustang's a "girls" car.



I think if you polled the over 35 crowd here and the under 28 crowd, you'd have extremely different views of Camaro.

Those over 35 (and the more "over" the more this holds true) will remember Camaros that had a broad based appeal. Whether you remember the LTs or the Berlinettas, most will have a relative, friend, girlfriend, or perhaps their own garage that housed a Camaro that wasn't a Z28 or an SS. Those under 28 will remember only 1 thing..... 4th gen Camaros were wickedly quick and ate Mustangs.

I once wrote a thread here that held that enthusiasts and the 4th gen Camaro basically destroyed the Camaro. I based that on the evidence that Team camaro spent most all their resources in making Camaro quick and fast, but spent essentially zilch on making the base model appealing, or a mid level car that bridged the massive gap between the base V6 that was marketed and sold as essentially an afterthought, and the Z28 which ran 155 then 160 mph and would smoke tires at will.




Going back to your question, "Does Camaro deserve to survive?", I'd look at the 4th gen (and keep in mind I'm on my 3rd one, so I'm far from a Camaro hater), and I'd say NO.

To be perfectly blunt about it, the car sucked.

The rear end's weak, the factory clutch has a lifespan that's shorter than just about everyone else, whoever designed the hatch never thought about where the water from morning condensation will go when someone opens it (right into the car... more specifically, the rear speakers). The carpet wears out prematurely, the exhaust system tends to rattle early, the lay flat windshield was a bad idea (and ultimately hastened the car's demise), the base of the windshield covered part of the engine, making easy mods or underhood work a test of patience and committment. Getting into or out of the seating position leaves alot to be desired. GM wouldn't even engineer out a simple catalytic converter hump that intruded into the front passenger's footspace or make a fuel guage that didn't think 1 gallon of gas should read 1/4 tank (in all fairness, my B4C's guage is the only 4th gen of 3 that doesn't have this "issue").

........And DON'T let get me started about those f*&%ing piece of sh*t power window motors GM refused to fix!


In short, if you yank out the engine and T-tops, is there enough to make the car worth buying?

Let it be enough to say the performance of the engine, and being intrigued with the prospect of a six-speed manual (combined with Ford seemingly walking away from performance in the late 90s) is what brought me over to Camaros. And there lies the root of all problems. Camaro MUST be more than an engine in a box. Again, judging by the 4th gen, Camaro probally doesn't derseve another chance.


BUT..........

There's 3 generations of Camaro before the 4th gen.

Camaro's heyday by any and every measurement was prior to the 4th gen.

GM has a template for success. Past Camaros and the past 40 years of Mustang success, including currently.

The people pulling the car together seem to have their collective heads out of the engine and are working on the entire car, finally remembering what the Camaro heritage really is.

And finally, there's alot of people like Charlie, myself, and others who remember when Camaro was far more than just a prepackaged pavement ripper. And the basic attraction of young buyers of this type of car (personalization) seems to be an ingredient that's going to be baked in with the development of the 5th gen.

I'd say Camaro deserved a trip to the penalty box for a time out (over seven years in this case) to wash out the image of the 4th gen with the general public (which collectively thought the car was dead already by the time it actually did die).

Based on all of this, I think it desrves another round.

 

Is it working....... ?

 

Hey everyone, does anyone else think that perhaps this thread was started as a joke? Maybe this guy did this just basically to see us go into a frenzy over it.

 

I've met Josh.

I doubt it.

I suspect he ment it as a probing question that none of us thought to ask ourselves.

 

Josh, Josh, Josh. Where should I start?

Camaro isn't a name or a car; it's a pasttime, passion, and motivation. When/if you ever own one, you'll understand what I mean. Sit down in that driver's seat and you begin to feel the honor it is to take a ride. Match that Camaro name with everything a Camaro is, and suddenly pressing that gas pedal seems like a privilege.

There's a reason why when you tell people, "I own a Camaro," you get a response like, "Oh, what kind?" or, "What size engine?" People know the name and many respect the name, no matter what age these people are. Being an owner of a '98 Camaro, I can attest to this. I've had many people look at me and recognize me by my car over and above by seeing me around. Do you think that would happen if I was driving a Malibu around or something? Absolutely not. Camaro's are some of the most prestigious rides for their market around, and this is part of why the owners and fans of the Camaro love it so much.

So, now I must ask, why do you love GM? Why do you love the Solstice? It's not really something you can explain, is it? I mean, you can tell people you like the Solstice's features, its styling, its overall persona. But why do you love it? At 22, you've went out and bought this car, and while making the normal monthly payments, you've still managed to fix what damage has been done to it. Why though? Because you've got a passion for everything your car has and is. Now take the passion you have for your car, multiply it by a history starting way back in September of 1966, and calculate in the millions of fans the Camaro has worldwide. This is why the Camaro is what it is. And don't anybody combat this with a reference to the Mustang because the Camaro is more rare than the Mustang and is built by an arguably better company.

Does this help your understanding at all?

 

Only if you're using the dark side of the force to do it

 

I'm 22, 23 in January.....so I'm right there with you. My dad had a 73' Z/28, my buddies dad a 69 T/A. I've grown up with the F-bodies, and I own a 2nd, a 3rd, and a 4th gen myself. The Camaro is more than a car to many including myself, and there is a whole lot more to the Camaro story than the 4th gens. I love my 4th gen. When I bought it, the rattles and squeaks, constant maintinence and such weren't a concern and they still aren't. It was my daily driver up until a year ago when the odometer hit 140,000 miles. While things did break, they will on any car. Maintinence is the key.

Growing up in the presence of the 1st and 2nd gens led to my love of the Camaro, and the Fbody in general. I have all of them (6 in all) because I love these cars. They have become more of a lifestyle than a hobby. I can not wait to add a 5th gen to my stable, because it is a Camaro. A true muscle car in modern day clothing. A work of art.......with a heretige worth remembering. So far, the 5th gen is a fitting tribute to the Camaro story, and as far as I see, will add very nicely to it's past.

 

The Camaro should NOT have to be resurrected, GM dropped the ball many years ago and let it die....

 

Well, I think Josh has a point about the demographics.

There's an old maxim about how all men lust after the cars (and the girls) that were hot when they were in high school.

So, I can imagine GM marketing coming up with a typical customer demographic -- Male. Born in 1950. Fell in love with the Camaro in high school (1968). In 2010, will be 60 years old, and at the max of earning and savings. And can finally can live the dream of cruising around in their dream car with all modern comforts.

Sure, if it's a good car, the 5th Gen will appeal to people of all ages, but I really think the core customer group is going to be Baby Boomers.

When the Camaro concept came out, someone on a blog made a comparison between GM and Al Bundy -- the down on his luck beergut guy who wants to relive his youthful glory days. There's probably a bit of truth in that, but so what -- it seems like a good market, and at this point GM really just needs to sell some cars.

I also agree strongly with what Guion said about the old Camaro being an awful daily driver -- and that's a huge buying factor for everyone -- even if you like squealing the tires. But at the same time, I don't see the new Camaro being cross-shopped that much with an Accord Coupe or a Pontiac G6 or a Mitsu Eclipse -- what's going to sell the car is a certain amount of testosterone.

 

First, are you wrong to want a solstice? hell no! It looks like a great car with your demographic in mind. If GM were targeting strictly 40+ the car would have been more retro like the challenger and almost was. Thats why the car has new design in it.

As for does it deserve to exist depends on what you mean. GM does not have a Mustang fighter in its line up. The Corvette is too expensive and the GTO was slightly bigger more expensive and some felt didnt have comperable design. From another stand point, if you look at the BMW M6, its a beautiful car that makes you want one as well as makes BMW look good. You might "settle" for a 3 series but the M6 makes you want a BMW. So I think of it as one of BMW's halo cars that make the company so desireable.



Now to me if you think about the dimensions of the car, style, performance, signifigance and, desireability, historically GM has a car that is very comperable considering when it was produced. The 69 Camaro.



The 5th gen I think will sell well at a little over 100k units per year. I think the independent rear will raise perceptions as well as give better performance. Its also a poor mans M6 if you will. The car should change perceptions of GM that Vette is not the only performance car GM makes that is gotta have it. Current perceptions of GMs cars make the Camaro a necesity.

Thankfully for us with Independent rear it can at least change perceptions of Camaro being a 60's straight line drag car, and overcomming the short commings of the 4th gen who many associate Camaro with.

 

guionM..


Very well said.

 

Josh.......the way I see it, this isn't a bad question.

But not for the reason(s) you may think.

There's a lesson here:

Yes....you may find Solace in the Solstice -- but that does not mean that every one else feels the same way. I can remember loving the Jeep CJ5 when I was your age (we had a Jeep dealership also.......)...but it wasn't long before I fell out of love with the CJ..........for many reasons.

The point? Every person has wants and needs.......and so while you may find the Solstice your cup of tea, so to speak, there are others that will never quite understand the Solstice. (just as I will never learn to love Japanese imports with very large exhaust pipes!!!!.....)

Now...working in the auto industry -- I may never learn to love said Japanese imports....I'd better DAMN WELL understand the motivation..........

So........good question ..and I'm glad you asked because everyone on this board -- I would hope -- will understand that it's important to "get past your own garage door" -- meaning -- there are others with opinions -- and the industry cannot survive with one or two points of view.

And Z28forever -- I don't necessarily agree that people (I'll go back and look at how you phrased it....) fell out of love with the Camaro per se. Yes -- you and a few more perhaps...but there were others who discovered it as well......

What DID happen is that the automotive market exploded both in terms of numbers of vehicles sold and customer choices.........if you go back and look at Camaro sales performance....it captured the same percentage of the "vehicle" market as it did from 1967 thru 2000.............a point I kept pounding home to anyone who would listen at GM.

 

Oh, let me make it perfectly clear Scott - I've NEVER fallen out of love with the Camaro, (I don't think those were my exact words, anyway). In fact, I've been totally obsessed by it since I saw my first new '67 at age six.

Even when I was disappointed with it's corporate goings on.

 

Just curious as to why you feel so strongly about NOT resurrecting the Camaro??

I'll give you my reasons "for"...
1)I love to look at the Solstice, it's HOT for sure!. But it's not for me..
I want a little more power, and a V8 rumble.
2)My dad's '68 SS 396/325hp after modifications, did front wheel ground clearing take offs and was driven daily, and it looked bad-@$$ just sitting still!..A real head-turner!..
3)Power, handling and affordability; earned it a nickname of the "poor man's Vette"....And as said, there was one for every budget.
4)And yeah, the nastalgia, there are so many people who have been affected by one that either they owned or someone close to them, and have fond memories b/c of one.

These are just a few I can think of right now..

 

Now THAT'S interesting!! So then why was it killed off again??