Diognes56

Stock power is not so much a concern for me as long as it can be modded to make more if I desire. Assuming that the Camaro will be lighter than the Mustang, I will be happy if the base V8 is 350hp and the top V8 is around 450 (while both being easy to mod).

David

RussStang

I am pretty sure that everyone on here has made the assumption that if we get a 500hp Camaro, it will be a GT500 competitor, and not a $25,000 car.

bossco

And with a few paltry bolt-ons in the case of the Shelby, making 600+ HP at the rear wheels....

Big Als Z

Yes, there is a limit to what you can offer. 350hp Camaros for mid to high 20's is perfect. Everyone wants a 25k LS2 making 400hp. Outside of GTO, you cant touch 400+hp unless you start getting near 40k. GTO is the cheapest performance car out there, dollar per hp.

SFireGT98

I agree with Guy's points. The cars that make north of 420 hp need to be priced out of reach of those too inexperienced for that much power. Priced so that even in a few years, a used one will still be beyond the reach of your avg late teen, early 20 year old with a part time job.

I'd also say that if a customer were buying a car making 500hp, there should be some small course to take with the car to make sure that the buyer fully understands what the car is capable of. There have been comments of wrecked Z06's and such. I guarentee most of these arent long time Corvette owners that respect the car and the power. There are more than likely quite a few guys my age (early 20s) that hit the big time quick or else were born into a rich family and went out and bought the fastest thing on the block and nearly got themselves killed with it.

You also see this all the time with motorcycles. Dude gets himself a motorcycle license for about 200 bucks, goes down to the bike shop and his good credit gets him a brand new GSXR 1000, a bike fully capable (as im sure Pacer knows well) of standing up well into the later gears. He goes out and gets himself killed because he should be on a 500-600cc bike learning the ropes and not trying to tame a beast his first time out.

Of course there is the added weight of federally mandated safety devices that could counter balance the horsepower influx somewhat as well.

Chris 96 WS6

You can get yourself killed in any kind of car, some just bring death quicker than others.

Insurance for an early 20-something on a 420hp car should be enough to keep most from purchasing new or used, so I honestly don't see price point of the car as nearly as critical, since we know anything with that much HP is going to be $30k or thereabouts to start with. Not many kids I know of that can drop $500/mo on a payment plus $200/mo on insurance.

And the point about new Z06's getting wrecked is irrelevant w/o actual numbers and then numbers from 405hp Z06's wrecked too and even comparos with the numbers of new vettes overall that get wrecked each year. Annecdotal evidence proves nothing.

I don't disagree that readily available and relatively affordable super-high-hp cars have some liability and safety issues, but this argument was going on when 320hp LS1 cars came out and even when 275hp LT1 cars ruled the streets.....and before that I'm sure.

Guy is correct in pointing out that there is a point of diminishing returns on increasingly high HP numbers. A 200 hp car might be 3 seconds faster in the 1/4 than a 100 hp car, but a 500 hp car may be only .5 faster than a 400 hp car. Not to mention with improved tire tech and the abundance of stuff like abs and active handling, tq management, etc. I think the issues of too much hp are manageable.

TTopJohn

how much power is enough? More than the competition. And 5 less horsepower than the most powerful Corvette. So we need an optional V8 that will outpower the Shelby Mustang and whatever SRT ends up putting under the hood of the Challenger. Someone said it earlier - it's a pissing contest. And the Camaro had better be in it to win


Making it turn corners and stop is good too - but that's not the question presented here. Sure it needs to turn corners and stop, and have a nice interior, and a sexy exterior. But it also needs more power than its rivals.

PacerX

Listen up, heathens:

This man speaketh great truth.

Robert_Nashville

First of all, the real issue is horsepower to weight!!!

A couple of years ago (F-Body Gathering; Atlanta), I asked Scott S. about the ever increasing horsepower available in cars in general – if there is a point at which it just has to stop and that if the industry doesn’t control itself did he think the government would step in?

For those of you as old as I am, simply having the need to raise such a question is pretty remarkable – for those of us who lived through the dark days of emissions equipment being thrown onto engines and ever DECREASING HP what we are seeing today is pretty remarkable.

That aside…when it comes to the question of how much is enough for the new Camaro I’m more concerned with the potential of the overall car than any single issue; even if that issue is HP.

Let’s face it, as nice as HP is, how often can we, let alone do we operate our vehicles at its limits? Not often. So, how satisfied we are going to be with any car has to be based on more than just HP.

I’m sure GM will give it sufficient HP to satisfy most and the good news is that for the foreseeable future, we are likely to be seeing only increasing performance coming down the road whatever the starting point happens to be for the new Camaro!

Ray86IROC

What would make a 350ish hp LS1-level engine (obviously it wouldn't actually be an LS1) any cheaper to produce and use than a 400hp LS2 engine. Especially if it's a 350hp smaller engine like the 5.3l that requires some more work to reach 350hp. I would rule out running a weaker drivetrain since 350hp is at th level it would need the kinda stuff the LS2 would need anyway, so lets concentrate on the engines themselves. What makes the LS2 supposedly so expensive?

Several people have been throwing out how the 5.3l should be some cheap midlevel option. Well what really makes a 325-350ish hp 5.3l any cheaper for GM to build than an LS2? I mean they're all LSx family engines. Externally they're the same size, they all have the same electronics and parts more or less, only real difference that might greatly impact cost is in some of the heads. (assuming we're figuring the Camaro will get an all aluminum engine and you don't throw iron block or heads in a "cheap" version of the engine or other variables like that).

It seems to me the cheapest one to shove in a Camaro should be whatever the volume V8 engine is for GM, is that not the 400hp LS2 at this time, at least in any performance applications??? They sure are sticking it in everything. I guess with the 5.3l engine in alot of trucks and stuff perhaps it's overall volume is greater, but then GM may need a specific head and cam package for a 5.3l in a performance application, driving up the cost some of a Camaro specific 350hp level 5.3l...

I'll personally be happy if the affordable (under 30k) Z28 type model has 350hp, but I'm hoping it has a LS2-ish 400 hp so it's a considerable upgrade from the last 4thgen models' power levels...


GM did this back in the day w/ the thirdgens and their 305 and 350 engines. But back then the drivetrain was vastly different. The base motors were so weak they got crappy exhausts, iron parts, crappy pistons, open rears, etc. With the levels we're talking about here in the new car, I just don't see them being able to skimp on these kinda parts w/ 325-350 hp engines. Maybe they can, it sure will suck to get stuck with a 350hp engine w/ a weak/cheap drivetrain and run into issues there. Will get the car labeled a big piece of junk really quick...

dfmoeller

I love horsepower as much as the next guy, but this whole thread, and others like it, ignore one huge fact. The first generation of musclecars died, not because of emissions controls or gas mileage, but because of insurance premiums. Long before the '71/'72 compression ratio lowering, and long before the '74 first oil embargo, the insurance companies started to tighten the screws (along around '69). By the time these other factors happened, the beast was almost dead already.

400HP net is actually more horsepower than an LS6 Chevelle in '70 (easily the strongest street car of the musclecar era) had with its 450 gross. 500 is otherworldly. The current crop doesn't feel quite as strong as the 454 because the torque is not available quite as low, but the power is there and make no mistake, this amount is horsepower is dangerous in the wrong hands. So far, the mega-horsepower cars have only been available to those with serious coin, so that kind of leaves the younger set out, but now with Camaros, Mustangs, and Challengers in a price range that young adults can afford, its a different story.

If we want these cars to live long and prosper, which I do in the worst way, GM needs to make sure these mega-horsepower brutes (by that I mean GT500s, LS7 Camaros, etc) are not too common. Indeed, since all the manufacturers seem to be participating in this, they all need to show some self-control, or you can expect a yearly insurance premium that is more than your car payment. I know from experience!

I know this won't be a popular post, but its the truth.

Doug

Ray86IROC

Safety standards are a heck of a lot better than they have ever been on a new car these days, I don't think insurance will be that killer (fingers crossed...).

Going from my 195hp (as far the insurance company was concerned) 87 Z28 with a book value of about half my 94s, to my 275hp 94 Z28 ended up saving me money on insurance. ABS and airbags and other various safety improvements are not lost on insurance companies...

If this new car gets 5-star crash ratings across the board, like I think Mr Settlemire said was their goal, insurance rates should be reasonable at least...

Doug Harden

Thing to remember is that insurance is based on "risk groups".....so cars that are in more accidents have higher rates...something the Camaro has long suffered with.......which also affects sales.

My C5 has lower rates than my Camaros....all because of this, not HP.

RussStang

Chris makes a really good point. As much as people talk about high hp killing people, their is no real evidence that supports this claim. I see just as many accidents (probably more) involving some idiot in a Civic than someone in a pony car. I barely need to tap into the power of my 4th gen to easily pull away from the rest of the cars at a stop light, so its not like someone with a 500hp engine is going to realisticly being laying into it all that often. This is just a pissing match between the top automakers, and it looks good when they win.

Doug also brings up a good point. Insurance on my previous car (01 Mustang GT) was higher than insurance on my Camaro. I was also quoted at the same time for both an 01 SS and a 98 Cobra, and the Cobra cost more to insure. I am currently with Nationwide Mutual. HP is not the only factor in the way insurance companies come up with their rates, its is the risk categories the cars are put in.

smackkk

I would hope the base V8 is capable of not only besting the GT but capable of holding its own against the other special edition Mustangs, ie.. Bullit, Mach 1, etc..

With the GT500 getting 475hp it leaves alot of room for Ford to bump those cars to app 400hp. So put me down for hoping we get at least a 400hp base car.