95firehawk

I think that both parties are right (or wrong in this instance.) I think it is the American culture that has done the most damage. As a society we have gone from a "for the greater good" mindset to "the most money and power to be had in the shortest amount of time regardless of the consequences" mentality.

For an example let's say you have a union employee that produces 5,000 units a day and gets paid $20 or more an hour. With the elitist frame of mind the union worker isn't going to work much harder because he knows that it's going to be extremely difficult for the company to fire him. This is compared to a person in China who produces 10,000 units a day and only makes $5 and hour. As said above the company costs are higher than they rightfully should. Facilities are built overseas, cost cutting measures are applied elsewhere (materials, engineering, R&D.) Not good when the competition can make it just as good if not better for half the price.

Another example is the large corporation who can put another x amount of dollars in their pockets if they implement the schedule that was stated in the post above (something to the effect of a 59 hr work week with 3 nine hour saturdays.) None of that extra profit is going to go into the worker's pockets which in turn will keep morale an experience low. This ultimately leads to an inferior product that won't sell well.

Granted to be as successful as possible is the root of capitalism, why does it have to be at the expense of everyone else? The elitist attitude that we display completely eliminates the balance that makes capitalism successful. IMO if we start thinking about "the greater good" then things can only improve.

christianjax

some very good points. Unions still suck though.

Capn Pete

Speak for yourself!!!

90rocz

Higher paying, benefitting Union jobs are factored into the area job curves, not just what the competition pays, for jobs of similar classifications.

90rocz

I blame greedy manufacturers, cutting costs where it hurt their product and designs, clinging to Old: tools/equipment and designs and processes and motors etc to milk as much profit out of them as possible...while the Japanese went on continuosly improving using SPC and other "Demming" philosiphies that domestic corps refused.

christianjax

well when you are paying the union what they extort from you as a company, can you blame them?

Capn Pete

Just a question, but have GM (line workers) always been part of a union, I mean since day one?? Thing is, Oshawa (the whole city / surrounding area) thrives on GM. Oshawa would otherwise be nothing without it. GM has ALWAYS been a great place to work (minus the BS), and I don't think "the damn union" has been bending the company over since day one . It just happened that GM is/was the world's largest corporation, and really could afford to pay their employees the wages/benefits that they did. Getting a job there was like "winning the lottery", so to speak. The union didn't have to "fight" for much (at least, I don't believe they did? ) other than to keep things equal and fair for all of the workers. I think we all agree, unions of TODAY serve a different purpose than unions of a few decades ago.

Point being, it is not solely the unions' fault that GM is in the position they're in. MANAGEMENT (when times were good) established the wages, and has also been the one driving the bus, making right turns and wrong turns along the way. While the unions/members DO have some "power" (no doubt) think of it as a government (since it's such a mega-corporation anyway) ... YES it's supposed to be like a "democratic" environment, but really, how often do we the public get to tell the gov't to jump, and they ask "how high"?? Keep in mind, $h!t usually does roll down hill, and unless you actually work on the line, I don't think you'd know the real issues that are NOT "benefits" to working there.

christianjax

Good points...except. Being in a union is more "socialist" than "democratic". And when a union can cripple a company like GM by deciding to strike (extort) instead of doing the jobs they are paid very well to do is total B.S. All that does is hurt America. Bottom line. Nobody ever said working on an assembly line was fun, or easy. Then again, either is being a Marine. (one is overpaid, the other is grossly underpaid) But you know what you are getting into when you sign up. Guess its a good thing our military aren't in a union huh? Where the hell would this country be if ALL jobs were union? Not a pretty image. I'd rather be an individual than to sell my soul to a union. They have outlived thier usefullness. Now all they do is drive up prices and force American companies to outsource to try and make a buck. (which is the reason they are in buisness to begin with, no?) American unions, the best thing to ever happen to India and China.

90rocz

I hate to break it to you, but this whole country IS a Union...the "United States"...
And the only reason the Gov't doesn't jump when we say is simply the lack of solidarity among U.S. citizens these days. But it wasn't always this way, people used to be less complacent and rally for what they believed in, and not just verbal support.
I guess all those people rallying for civil rights in D.C. in the '60's were extorting the Gov't huh?...

Unions are Democratic in working, though some think their cause is socialistic, but people have lost sight of the American Dream...and it really shows.

PS: Mabye you didn't know that the average transplant (Honda, Toyota etc) makes very nearly the same wages and in some cases better health care than Domestic's...but they are just now getting a fair number of retirees.

christianjax

No you didn't. I know the "United States" is a union of the states. But other than that, what pray tell is any other similarities between the United States and the UAW???? Who is the country's "Shop Steward"? When was the last time citizens of the country went on strike? (and NO a protest is NOT a strike. It doesn't shut down the country when there is a protest.) And this country doesn't have silly rules like a union does.
Quick story. I was on a union movie set watching a gaffer hang a light for a shot. He was up on a ladder and his tool tray was on the ground. I saw that he needed a screwdriver for what he was trying to do. So being a decent and helpful person, I handed him the screwdriver. He said "I can't take that from you." I was stunned. He then climbed down the ladder and grabbed the exact screwdriver I just tried to hand him. How is that productive?? That is the union's idea of giving the company the most productivity??? That's just ONE example of the stupidity of unions. If you want bang for you buck productivity, DON'T HAVE A UNION. If you want people that pace themselves to the lowest common denominator to protect their worth, by all means go union.

Capn Pete

Ok, we get your point ... you hate unions ... are we done yet??

christianjax

I shall preach from the mountain tops until everyone agrees that unions are unnesseccary and that they are a parasite on the productivity of American progress.

Andy30thZ

You're a funny guy.

christianjax

Hey I'm in town all week, try the buffet.

That wasn't an attack on union workers, I was just pointing out the fact that unions are indefensible.