V8 Camaro to be more expensive?

http://www.thecarconnection.com/blog/?p=759

What gives? This is a very scary thing to read about the Camaro as it comes out. It also doesn't make any sense unless Ford also raises its prices.

Sounds like they are trying to encourage more V6 sales? :shrug:

Cars are going to get more expensive period, all manufacturers are going to do a good bit of wizadry to be comfortably under CAFE.

Hasn't the v8 model generally always been more expensive than the v6 model? On basically every vehicle that ever offered a v6 and a v8?

I'm confused.

What gives? This is a very scary thing to read about the Camaro as it comes out. It also doesn't make any sense unless Ford also raises its prices.

Fords in a good position with the Mustang, IIRC they had settled on making money with only about 80k cars a year, and they are close to selling at or over 500k units since the car has been introduced (nearly double their expectation), I can only guess alot of the engineering, manufacturing equipment costs, ect have been paid for. Not to mention the S197 is built in America rather than Canada. Its on a proprietary chassis like the Camaro has sort of been shoe horned into, but its dead nutz simple compared to the F5 (for once, hooray bean counters and knuckle-dragging simple minded drag racers who only think in one dimension), now if Ford could figure out how to make a cheaper engine????

http://www.thecarconnection.com/blog/?p=759

What gives? This is a very scary thing to read about the Camaro as it comes out. It also doesn't make any sense unless Ford also raises its prices.

The era of the dirt cheap V8 is over. At the same time, anyone saying the price of the volume V8 Camaro is going to be near Corvette territory is completely off their rocker.

First, it's no secret the price of V8s were destined to go up, and in fact already command a premium over V6 models. V8s are going into ONLY performance cars now, and are charged accordingly. Look at everything from Chargers & 300s to even Impala SS.

Mustang GTs are now up to just a few dollars short of $26K.
Impala SS is now going for just under $29K.... starting.
Charger R/T now bases at over $30K.

You simply are NOT going to get another $22K V8 Camaro. Most all Z28s, even in 2002, stickered in excess of $25K.

Before anyone buts in with the normal "but... you need to judge the price after incentives and discounts" BS, let me remind them that if the Camaro needs discounts and incentives to roll out the door, that's BAD, not good news. The whole idea is to sell the car at list.

By the time the Camaro rolls out, it's going to be priced along no lower than a similar Mustang (though I expect it to be slightly more). If by this time next year, a Mustang V8 runs $27,500, then expect a V8 Camaro to be pushing $28.

That's before CAFE kicks in and GM has to start limiting V8 production and prices of the V8 go up farther.

The era of the dirt cheap V8 is over.

Oh, for sure. That is not the end of the market that automakers are going to want to stimulate now. And if they're going to take a CAFE hit for it - we will pay.

BTW, in the other thread I said I'd rather have a 2.9L turbo diesel Camaro over a hybrid, if I'm looking for max mpg.

By the time the Camaro rolls out, it's going to be priced along no lower than a similar Mustang (though I expect it to be slightly more). If by this time next year, a Mustang V8 runs $27,500, then expect a V8 Camaro to be pushing $28.



I don't know what everyone is freaking out about. I've been expecting 27-30K for the V-8 since last year... now if it's higher than that.... :confused:

GM is thought to have assigned a team of engineers to work out how to apply its new dual-mode hybrid system for an even more expensive version of the Camaro.

That gives me wood :D

If it's gonna cost over 30k for the base V8 that thing better be an LS3.

GM has to price the Camaro around Mustang GT price otherwise it will fail. Until you see those prices skyrocket, you have little worries. Although it's quickly becoming the "not so affordable" musclecar...

GM has to price the Camaro around Mustang GT price otherwise it will fail. Until you see those prices skyrocket, you have little worries. Although it's quickly becoming the "not so affordable" musclecar...

Considering what you get with a camaro vs GT (At least 60-100 more HP, IRS, 6 speed auto/manual) a couple grand higher camaro quickly makes sense. BUT I would rather pay 26K than 28 :p

Unfortunately, you're right, and the "average" buyer won't see that and ask, "Why should I buy a camaro for 28-30K when I can get a GT for 26K?"

The era of the dirt cheap V8 is over. At the same time, anyone saying the price of the volume V8 Camaro is going to be near Corvette territory is completely off their rocker.

I think it is important to note that the performance of the V6 is now in V8 territory. Camaro will probably have the DI 3.6L making 300+HP. Correct me if I'm wrong but from 1973-1996 no Camaro had a V8 that put out over 300HP, the 1996 SS had 305HP and the 1997 LT4 had 330HP (and that was a $40K car ten years ago :eek:)

Any new V8 Camaro is going to have around 430HP from that LS3. That is more than the early 90's Vipers, ZR1's, and C5 Z06. That is a lot of power.

I think if we look at HP instead of cylinder count the Camaro is still going to be a performance bargain. And never before have we had so many different engine choices above 300HP.

Any new V8 Camaro is going to have around 430HP from that LS3.

Is it? Or is it going to have 362 hp from an L76, at least in the Mustang-GT-equivalent mass-market trim line?

The question seems to be, "How much higher?" I don't think anyone here reasonably expected a V8 under $25,000. Those were rare during the late 4th gen, and that was six years ago (wow, six years). But if we start going higher - lets say above $30,000 for a base V8 - we're in trouble. Even if most people buy the V6, the fact that the V8 is affordable is very important to the Camaro brand and its image of attainable performance.

That said, a hybrid V8 Camaro is a terrific idea, potentially groundbreaking. What a terrific competitor to the Shelby GT. It would make immediately clear which company is accelerating into the future and which is dragging its knuckles.

Is it? Or is it going to have 362 hp from an L76, at least in the Mustang-GT-equivalent mass-market trim line?

That's my line of thought, but so many seem to think it's going to be the LS3. Honestly, I don't care, whichever is cheaper.

Is it? Or is it going to have 362 hp from an L76, at least in the Mustang-GT-equivalent mass-market trim line?

Is the Camaro going to get 3 V8's? LS8, LS3, L76? If one engine has to go I'd rather it be the L76. And now there is talk of a Turbo V6 and hybrid for the Camaro. So thats a 4th V8 setup and a 400HP TT V6.

That's my line of thought, but so many seem to think it's going to be the LS3. Honestly, I don't care, whichever is cheaper.

How much more can an LS3 cost to build :shrug: anyone have create prices?

Hasn't the v8 model generally always been more expensive than the v6 model? On basically every vehicle that ever offered a v6 and a v8?

I'm confused.
Yep. V8 Camaros have always been the pricey ones. Plus - Camaro has been off the market for 8 years. Eight years in which new car prices have naturally followed inflation. I priced a new Mustang GT Premium coupe at edmunds.com, pretty loaded with nav, Shaker stereo, chrome wheels, etc.. MSRP $38,500 :eek:

Camaro has been off the market for 8 years. Eight years in which new car prices have naturally followed inflation. I priced a new Mustang GT Premium coupe at edmunds.com, pretty loaded with nav, Shaker stereo, chrome wheels, etc.. MSRP $38,500 :eek:

$29,000 in 2002 is $35,666 in 2009 assuming the price goes up 3% every year. $25,000 2002 would be $30,746 in 2009 with that same 3%

So if those were the base prices for the Z28 and SS today we should expect $30,000 for the L76 and $35,000 for the LS3. Don't forget a 2010 Camaro would have more base options and things like bigger rims, brakes, etc...

The difference now, is that I don't believe GM will make the marketing decision to 'push' the V8 cars.

Previously, the V6 cars were loss leaders - now they'll be the main event.

What will the V8's highway mpg be rated at? 24 mpg? 25mpg?
What if by '10/'11 GM needs a corporate average of 29 or 30? Heck, I don't even think the V6's will get that.

So in this scenario, Camaro will not aid GM in it's CAFE efforts. I think it only makes sense for GM to try and limit Camaro's adverse effects on the corporate average. It would be foolhardy not to.

hmm i would hope around 30 highway mpg.. considerin the 6spd 4thgens were rated at 27 or 28 depending on the year.. it better not be 25.. cause that would be pathetic..

I haven't been seeing a whole lot of good news lately. 70's all over again with regulations killing the HP wars. I never expected the V8 to come in at 25, and have been planning for a 38-40k Camaro for the last year so this isn't much of a shock.

hmm i would hope around 30 highway mpg.. considerin the 6spd 4thgens were rated at 27 or 28 depending on the year.. it better not be 25.. cause that would be pathetic..

The revised EPA estimates on the car you speak of is 17/26. The new camaro will have more HP and you want more fuel economy?

I'm *hoping* the '10 Camaro will get 17/25-ish for the V-8.

Edit:

Hmmmmmmmmm, the new G8 is rated at 15/24...

The G8 V6 is 17/25

hmm i would hope around 30 highway mpg.. considerin the 6spd 4thgens were rated at 27 or 28 depending on the year.. it better not be 25.. cause that would be pathetic..

I think 30 on the highway would be nice, but it will take some work with the new EPA ratings. With a 6 speed manual, a 1995 LT1 is 15/24 under the new ratings and a 2002 LS1 is 17/26.

The G8 is rated 15/24 with V8 and 17/25 with V6. The Cadillac CTS with the DI 3.6 is rated at 16/25 for the manual.

The difference now, is that I don't believe GM will make the marketing decision to 'push' the V8 cars.

Previously, the V6 cars were loss leaders - now they'll be the main event.

What will the V8's highway mpg be rated at? 24 mpg? 25mpg?
What if by '10/'11 GM needs a corporate average of 29 or 30? Heck, I don't even think the V6's will get that.

So in this scenario, Camaro will not aid GM in it's CAFE efforts. I think it only makes sense for GM to try and limit Camaro's adverse effects on the corporate average. It would be foolhardy not to.

And with the more limited production and increased premium on the V8, the Camaro is becoming more of a Challenger competitor than Mustang competitor. Perhaps it will be higher volume than Challenger, but this seems like a natural concession given the circumstances.

The difference now, is that I don't believe GM will make the marketing decision to 'push' the V8 cars.

Previously, the V6 cars were loss leaders - now they'll be the main event.

What will the V8's highway mpg be rated at? 24 mpg? 25mpg?
What if by '10/'11 GM needs a corporate average of 29 or 30? Heck, I don't even think the V6's will get that.

So in this scenario, Camaro will not aid GM in it's CAFE efforts. I think it only makes sense for GM to try and limit Camaro's adverse effects on the corporate average. It would be foolhardy not to.
I'm no expert but if the aero work is done correctly and you have a nice automatic with proper 5th and 6th gear selections, I don't really understand how you couldn't get in the upper 20s on the highway.

If GM puts a high geared rear end in the car, then yeah, it's probably possible... but it's also a camaro. It's hard to find that balance where the car will have competitive 0-60 times, etc. and still have good fuel economy. I'm sure the camaro could easily be geared for 30mpg highway, but it will be a complete dog and uncompetitive (the same could probably even be said for the *boring* passenger cars, but no one wants to give up the performance numbers and look slow or "weak" when compared to competitors). On the other end of the spectrum, GM could say screw fuel mileage and drop a low rear in the car and have *lower* 0-60 and 1/4 miles times.

Hasn't the v8 model generally always been more expensive than the v6 model? On basically every vehicle that ever offered a v6 and a v8?

I'm confused.


You're not alone with that. I assumed the same thing.

I'm no expert but if the aero work is done correctly and you have a nice automatic with proper 5th and 6th gear selections, I don't really understand how you couldn't get in the upper 20s on the highway.


You mean as aero as the MUCH lighter Corvette, which gets 16/26?

I haven't been seeing a whole lot of good news lately. 70's all over again with regulations killing the HP wars. I never expected the V8 to come in at 25, and have been planning for a 38-40k Camaro for the last year so this isn't much of a shock.

Horsepower wars took a nosedive when insurence started slapping surcharges on the around 1970, and the bulk of the public (the large post-WWII babies) outgrew "youth-oriented" vehicles and wanted more luxury.

They moved out of GTOs, Chevelle SSs, and Road Runners into Grand Prixs, Monte Carlos, and Cordobas. All which saw a sales explosion even before Fed-Regs kicked in during the 70s.

Just remember what Scott said: within $xxx (either 500 or 1000) of a similar Mustang...

I remember reading THAT quote a LONG time ago....

Why not just put 2 rear ratios in? If designed right it might last warranty length and give performance when needed and economy when warranted.

I remember reading THAT quote a LONG time ago....

Right, back before CAFE, back when Camaro still had line mates, back when Mustang was getting a reworking right before Camaro came out, back when Dodge thought Challenger could exist on only V8 sales...

I think the last part might be the worst omen, the Challenger required less work than the Camaro, already had 2 1/2 succesful line mates, and was and will still command a premium over Camaro, but they're already gunning for the V6 market... :think:

anyone saying the price of the volume V8 Camaro is going to be near Corvette territory is completely off their rocker.

This is true. Not to mention, the plant will be a flex plant, so other cars and trucks will be built there as well.

You simply are NOT going to get another $22K V8 Camaro. Most all Z28s, even in 2002, stickered in excess of $25K.

My 2002 Camaro SS (loaded with t-tops, leather, 6-speed, etc.) was over $32k. Hardly seems like it was going on 6 years ago.

I was expecting to pay about $32K for a nicely equipped/almost loaded V8. And it better have at least 400 HP, not this L76 BS. If the price of a loaded "base" V8 comes out to be around $38-40K, I hope the car tanks and once again becomes history. That would be nothing short of offensive and a complete punch in the face to what the Camaro stands for.

If GM puts a high geared rear end in the car, then yeah, it's probably possible... but it's also a camaro. It's hard to find that balance where the car will have competitive 0-60 times, etc. and still have good fuel economy. I'm sure the camaro could easily be geared for 30mpg highway, but it will be a complete dog and uncompetitive (the same could probably even be said for the *boring* passenger cars, but no one wants to give up the performance numbers and look slow or "weak" when compared to competitors). On the other end of the spectrum, GM could say screw fuel mileage and drop a low rear in the car and have *lower* 0-60 and 1/4 miles times.I didn't really speak to city mileage because the highway mileage should be occuring mainly in 4th-6th which you wouldn't even get to in the 1/4mi let alone at 60mph.

You mean as aero as the MUCH lighter Corvette, which gets 16/26?As close as possible. I realize the Camaro is going to be a good bit heavier, but I don't think that is quite as large a factor for highway mileage as aero and gearing. The final through 6th is pretty tall on the Vette, but I couldn't say if you could go taller...

And with the more limited production and increased premium on the V8, the Camaro is becoming more of a Challenger competitor than Mustang competitor. Perhaps it will be higher volume than Challenger, but this seems like a natural concession given the circumstances.

Seriously, we know that GM has planned this entire camaro business case on selling a sizeable number of the vehicles! I don't see how they could even operate the plant if the Camaro is limited like the Challenger.
Yes, based on the latest media reports some of the RWD vehicles are now being put on hold or postponed including the impala which everyone anticipated coming off the same flex line. It does seem that GM could build the small Caddy off of the same line. Also, a report I read last weekend says that GM could build FWD vehicles off of the same assembly line??

We know the v8 will be a premium over the six, but WE ALL KNOW the Camaro would cease to be a CAMARO if there was no mainstream v8!

I'm going to have to "KEEP THE FAITH" on this one. :bow:

I was expecting to pay about $32K for a nicely equipped/almost loaded V8. And it better have at least 400 HP, not this L76 BS.

So whats the matter with the L76 for the run of the mill Camaro and an LS3 as an optional powerplant (if that were the case)? Nothing wrong with a mid to low 13 second car.

So whats the matter with the L76 for the run of the mill Camaro and an LS3 as an optional powerplant (if that were the case)? Nothing wrong with a mid to low 13 second car.

With an IRS and a curb weight around 3700-3800lbs I don't see it hitting low 13's with an L76. That's what the later 4th gens ran with close to the same power (mine made 308rwhp stock in 01) and 3-400lbs less weight with no torque management bs.

I've heard 3700 lbs, but I guess I've figured it'd be closer to 3600 lbs. Well high to mid 13's for a base V8 still isn't bad if GM were to offer a two tier V8 program along with some sort of super SE along the way.

That'd actually make for a cool Mustang/Camaro heads up low buck racing class in both drag and road.

I could see it, limit the mods to factory wheel sizes and basic chassis bolt-ons, put a roll-bar in, strap on a brain bucket and go racing in cars that had about the same hp/TQ to weight ratio.

Now that would be cool.

The huge strategic mistake here is that GM went with a large car platform instead of a smaller one. The writing was on the wall for large cars and SUVs three years ago. I can't understand why GM didn't heed the warning. Now they're stuck with a large platform that is basically a white elephant. To make it feasable they will have to build high-end large cars like Cadillac and Buick because they sure won't sell many large Impalas to anyone but police and taxi companies.

It is not the just the gas price this time, it's these damn lefties trumpeting the hysterical global warming agenda. Unless we speak up, I see three years of V8 Camaros before they end production. What a stinking mess.

The huge strategic mistake here is that GM went with a large car platform instead of a smaller one. The writing was on the wall for large cars and SUVs three years ago. I can't understand why GM didn't heed the warning. Now they're stuck with a large platform that is basically a white elephant.

It puts Camaro in abit of a predicament.

For one reason or another, after much deliberation, Camaro ended up on Zeta. In the end, the selling point was, that it was an already developed architecture, and Camaro could spread it's costs with several other lines, in a modern assembly plant. Makes sense. Of course, it's possible that now, Camaro will be the only Zeta going down that modern, refurbished, flex line. So, there's that.

The other thing, is Zeta itself. Every Zeta program has struggled with weight. Generally, Zeta is not very CAFE friendly because of that. As long as the status quo remained with CAFE, the wizards at GM Powertrain would have had no trouble keeping hundreds of thousands of Zetas within compliance. But it's a whole new world now. A world where mass is the enemy, like never before. And there's a pretty good chance that Camaro will exceed it's weight target - maybe by alot. And that puts a big fat target on it's back.

My hope is that Camaro makes a HUGE splash when it's released. Every bit as big as Mustang's. GM management needs to see and believe that Camaro is an important integral of the global Chevrolet line up. They NEED to believe this, because I think that this Camaro's days are numbered. And if they don't believe it, really believe it, we won't get the next Camaro.

That's my line of thought, but so many seem to think it's going to be the LS3. Honestly, I don't care, whichever is cheaper.

Can someone shed some light as to the actual difference in cost between the L76 and LS3 ??

Can someone shed some light as to the actual difference in cost between the L76 and LS3 ??

I can't really shed any light on it with actual numbers, but there must be a reason that GM downsized the power with the same basic displacement as the LS2. Both got about or the same milage, but the LS2 did it with nearly 40 more hp. ? There has to be a financial reason why GM canned the LS2 in favor of the L76.

I thought it was canned in favor of the LS3. This way the engine platform could be spread out across more vehicles.

Oh jeez.....not more pushing for the L76 :yuck:.

I thought it was canned in favor of the LS3. This way the engine platform could be spread out across more vehicles.

That would be nice, but it looks like the L76 is getting all the placement while the LS3 is for now a Vette exclusive. Unless it is in vehicles that I'm not aware of.

I think you guys may be barking up the wrong tree with the L76.

I think you guys may be barking up the wrong tree with the L76.

Sure hope so. I expect at LEAST 400hp, hoping for 430+.

So whats the matter with the L76 for the run of the mill Camaro and an LS3 as an optional powerplant (if that were the case)? Nothing wrong with a mid to low 13 second car.

A lot of stuff is wrong with a mid to low 13 second Camaro, considering the 4th gen LS1's broke 12's with good tires 10 years ago. I have no problem paying for an LS3 "option" as long as it comes in under $32K moderately equipped.

I don't know what everyone is freaking out about. I've been expecting 27-30K for the V-8 since last year... now if it's higher than that.... :confused:

My GUESS is you're correct about high 20's pushing 30k for a BASE V8. Someone mentioned 3% a year; I paid 24,950 (well that was sticker anyways) on a 96 fully loaded Z-28 (leather, T-tops, the works). 3% a year compounded makes that cost 38,871 as a 2010 model year car. That won't happen.


The question seems to be, "How much higher?" I don't think anyone here reasonably expected a V8 under $25,000. Those were rare during the late 4th gen, and that was six years ago (wow, six years). But if we start going higher - lets say above $30,000 for a base V8 - we're in trouble. Even if most people buy the V6, the fact that the V8 is affordable is very important to the Camaro brand and its image of attainable performance.

That said, a hybrid V8 Camaro is a terrific idea, potentially groundbreaking. What a terrific competitor to the Shelby GT. It would make immediately clear which company is accelerating into the future and which is dragging its knuckles.

Not far from the truth. A BASE V8 will have to be priced right around 30k for it to compete with the Rustang. That's the market they'll have to attack- not the Challenger market at 40k+; I can't believe Dodge is that stupid. Are they trying to market the Challenger as the "poor man's Corvette"?


I was expecting to pay about $32K for a nicely equipped/almost loaded V8. And it better have at least 400 HP, not this L76 BS. If the price of a loaded "base" V8 comes out to be around $38-40K, I hope the car tanks and once again becomes history. That would be nothing short of offensive and a complete punch in the face to what the Camaro stands for.

I love guessing. I would bet the "nicely equipped/almost loaded V8" to be more in the 34k range. Similar in pricing to the now-defunct GTO but not over-priced with regards to the Rustang. Top dog Camaro- Z28 or SS (not sure from all the press which is actually going to be the "better" model) will probably push 37k.


Sure hope so. I expect at LEAST 400hp, hoping for 430+.

Again referencing the GTO, I can't see the "top dog" with any less than 400hp but the base V8 may surprise you coming in similar to the G8 range of 361hp 385tq.

no doubt the Mustang has crept up and will continue to creep up. That is because like stated above the mustang has continued to sell much higher than was expected. The prices have crept up and will continue to do so unless people stop buying them at the current rates.

That does not mean the Mustang price to build has gone up that much. It simply means people bought in volumes, so they added a bit here and there. That also does not mean the Camaro has to cost a few dollars more. If they do come out with a base V8 with cloth interior for 25k, who's to say it simply can't be done? If any company can, it is GM. After all, they have A LOT riding on this car.

We all know they can make one hell of a car and sell it for 28k, but that does not mean it will be best for business or what they SHOULD do. Also, from everything I have heard, the Camaro it s not on a dedicated platform, like the Mustang. If anything that should make it possible to come in under the mustang.

part of the problem with the 4th gen was that it was quite a bit more expensive than the Mustang.

You guys seem to be making excuses for GM for why the car will be more expensive than what I will want to pay for it.

If you are right, I will not buy it. A LOT of other people will be right along with me.

part of the problem with the 4th gen was that it was quite a bit more expensive than the Mustang.

Yep, but as mentioned many times that the expected price for the next Camaro will be within $500 of a comparable Mustang.

You guys seem to be making excuses for GM for why the car will be more expensive than what I will want to pay for it.

Nobody wants to pay for it. It it came in at a price everyone wanted, it wouldn't cost anything. ;) However if people expect it to be unrealistically priced they will be disappointed.

Go to Ford's web site and build the Mustang you would like to be honestly comparable to your Camaro and look at the price.

part of the problem with the 4th gen was that it was quite a bit more expensive than the Mustang.

You guys seem to be making excuses for GM for why the car will be more expensive than what I will want to pay for it.

If you are right, I will not buy it. A LOT of other people will be right along with me.

What's your threshold of pain? Assuming the order below is correct "low to high".

base V8? mine 28k
Z-28? mine 34k
SS? mine 38k

Will they even have a base V8 or will the V8 start with the Z-28?

part of the problem with the 4th gen was that it was quite a bit more expensive than the Mustang.

You guys seem to be making excuses for GM for why the car will be more expensive than what I will want to pay for it.

If you are right, I will not buy it. A LOT of other people will be right along with me.

First new car was a mustang gt in 82 cost me 10,700.00 CD,I could not afford the camaro at 15,000.00
Second mustang gt in 85 cost 12,500.00, camaro was still out of reach at 17,000.00
Bought a mustang gt convertable in 87 21,700.00, camaro iroc (hardtop) 350tpi 26,500.00.

And my last new pony car to date my 2002 35th ss full load 6 speed retailed for 49,000.00 CD.

What do I expect as a price on the new camaro if I use what I paid for my last chev silverado as an example ( 2008 2500HD LTZ):mad:

If GMC can stick a 74,000.00 msrp on a pickup you figure it out, I definately don't expect to see anything less than 50,000.00 for a nicely equipped V8 car in Canada, I guess I'll know for sure in less than a year.

John

It puts Camaro in abit of a predicament.

For one reason or another, after much deliberation, Camaro ended up on Zeta. In the end, the selling point was, that it was an already developed architecture, and Camaro could spread it's costs with several other lines, in a modern assembly plant. Makes sense. Of course, it's possible that now, Camaro will be the only Zeta going down that modern, refurbished, flex line. So, there's that.

The other thing, is Zeta itself. Every Zeta program has struggled with weight. Generally, Zeta is not very CAFE friendly because of that. As long as the status quo remained with CAFE, the wizards at GM Powertrain would have had no trouble keeping hundreds of thousands of Zetas within compliance. But it's a whole new world now. A world where mass is the enemy, like never before. And there's a pretty good chance that Camaro will exceed it's weight target - maybe by alot. And that puts a big fat target on it's back.

My hope is that Camaro makes a HUGE splash when it's released. Every bit as big as Mustang's. GM management needs to see and believe that Camaro is an important integral of the global Chevrolet line up. They NEED to believe this, because I think that this Camaro's days are numbered. And if they don't believe it, really believe it, we won't get the next Camaro.


Agreed. If I were GM I would be lobbying for a grandfather clausethat allows all platforms created prior to 2009 to be exempt from the new CAFE standards until 2030. I would include current V8 architecture in that too. However, all production line platforms designed after 2009 should have to comply with the 2020 standard.

The reason for a grandfathering clause is clear: GM, already struggling against offshore predators, sunk a huge chunk of change into Zeta. It sounds almost anti-GM to pull those CAFE standards out of the hat just as they committed $2.5 billion to the new line.
Needless to say, jobs will be lost, and less money will be around for new platforms if they can't make a profit on Zeta.

Now that the Mustang will have some stiff competition, shouldn't prices begin to cap off?

At least, I wouldn't expect prices to increase a whole lot.

Do we think the Z28 will fall into GTO price range? (mid-$30's)

If so, the quality and features should be comparable as well...

I would expect the Z28 to have SRT power..LS?..+5 to 10HP.(430hp +)

I think an "affordable" Base Camaro with a V8, should be as accessible as any equiv Mustang if they want to steal some market.

I can't believe Dodge is that stupid. Are they trying to market the Challenger as the "poor man's Corvette"?
]

The Challenger isn't trying to bark up the vette's tree at all, its going for the modern interpetation of the musclecar.

Yep, but as mentioned many times that the expected price for the next Camaro will be within $500 of a comparable Mustang.



Nobody wants to pay for it. It it came in at a price everyone wanted, it wouldn't cost anything. ;) However if people expect it to be unrealistically priced they will be disappointed.

Go to Ford's web site and build the Mustang you would like to be honestly comparable to your Camaro and look at the price.

I have priced out my ideal Mustang, it was in 05 and it was just under 25k. I also looked at a V6 and it was under 19k. My favorite car I have ever had was a 1981 Mustang LX, it had character, everything worked, including the crank windows, manual door locks and the power steering.

My problem is today they put all this crap as standard, but I am perfectly happy without it. Actually I am more happy without it. But that's just me.

I think there should be a throw back model, instead of putting all this crap as standard equipment just to say it comes with a-z standard, offer a model without all that stuff and offer it at a much lower price. Then, if you want to offer a model with more options, then by all means do so. It will probably sell much better than the stripper. However, what else is out there offered with very little other than a powerful engine and rwd ? That is what made most of the original muscle cars so exciting, a big ass engine in a small car with not much weighing them down. Hell FM was a rare option. Today most Mustang V6's come with the MAch 500 sound system.

My pain threshhold is 25k right now. I know you guys keep saying that there is an annual increase for inflation, etc. But my income is not rising with inflation and my costs are going up. I will have to find another source of employment to even get to that.

But what do I want for that? A torque abundant V8 and a manual trans. Hopefully it will handle well, and then I'd be happy as hell. I'm a driver first and foremost. I want to enjoy driving my car.

Power windows don't do it for me,
Not hearing the road or the engine really don't do it for me,
a booming stereo don't do it for me,
Heavy ass chrome dipped DUBs don't do it for me,
NAVI don't do it for me,
Power locks don't do it for me,
IPOD docks don't do it for me,
heated seats don't do it for me,
You get the picture.

What does it for me is a stiff chassis that does not flex
A rumbling exhaust
my arm hanging out the window
reaching over the console to crank down the passenger window
Brakes that will make my eyeballs hurt when stomped on
Seats that are either havily side bolstered or easily replacable
Back seats where my kids will be safe
300 ft lbs of Torque
a shifter with a mechanical click every time I shift gears
Three pedals

I don't want anything but performance, everything else just makes it harder to reach and harder to enjoy.

A lot of stuff is wrong with a mid to low 13 second Camaro, considering the 4th gen LS1's broke 12's with good tires 10 years ago. I have no problem paying for an LS3 "option" as long as it comes in under $32K moderately equipped.

Well the "just want a V8 sound" people aside, I could make a case for a mid 13 second camaro, just by the number of kids I've seen cruising around in SRT4's, New Edge Machs, ect (worst case I've read about was a kid that got the keys to a GT500, promptly wrecked it and then got another :rolleyes: ). Perfect car for Jr with the newly minted DL and "excellent" state administered driver's ed. (especially when they dont want to be seen in some girly V6 Camaro)

My pain threshhold is 25k right now. I know you guys keep saying that there is an annual increase for inflation, etc. But my income is not rising with inflation and my costs are going up. I will have to find another source of employment to even get to that.

But what do I want for that? A torque abundant V8 and a manual trans. Hopefully it will handle well, and then I'd be happy as hell. I'm a driver first and foremost. I want to enjoy driving my car.

Power windows don't do it for me,
Not hearing the road or the engine really don't do it for me,
a booming stereo don't do it for me,
Heavy ass chrome dipped DUBs don't do it for me,
NAVI don't do it for me,
Power locks don't do it for me,
IPOD docks don't do it for me,
heated seats don't do it for me,
You get the picture.

What does it for me is a stiff chassis that does not flex
A rumbling exhaust
my arm hanging out the window
reaching over the console to crank down the passenger window
Brakes that will make my eyeballs hurt when stomped on
Seats that are either havily side bolstered or easily replacable
Back seats where my kids will be safe
300 ft lbs of Torque
a shifter with a mechanical click every time I shift gears
Three pedals

I don't want anything but performance, everything else just makes it harder to reach and harder to enjoy.

wow...I couldn't have said it better myself...I agree 100%:bow:

Well the "just want a V8 sound" people aside, I could make a case for a mid 13 second camaro, just by the number of kids I've seen cruising around in SRT4's, New Edge Machs, ect (worst case I've read about was a kid that got the keys to a GT500, promptly wrecked it and then got another :rolleyes: ). Perfect car for Jr with the newly minted DL and "excellent" state administered driver's ed. (especially when they dont want to be seen in some girly V6 Camaro)

Not as bad as the kid I went to High school with.

Turned 16, dad hands him the keys to a brand new M3. A week later it's totalled. A few days later dad hands him the keys to a spankin new Viper.

The V8 sound is not even a big deal anymore either. Next time you see a G35, roll down your window as it goes by, it has a very nice sounding exhaust. I don't see why GM can't do the same with the 3.6.

Turned 16, dad hands him the keys to a brand new M3. A week later it's totalled. A few days later dad hands him the keys to a spankin new Viper.

Wow .... just .... wow .... I can only guess this was his dad's version of tough love, sorta like when your folks found you messing around with a cigarette and decided that making you smoke the whole pack was the way to teach you a lesson.

I have priced out my ideal Mustang, it was in 05 and it was just under 25k. I also looked at a V6 and it was under 19k. My favorite car I have ever had was a 1981 Mustang LX, it had character, everything worked, including the crank windows, manual door locks and the power steering.

My problem is today they put all this crap as standard, but I am perfectly happy without it. Actually I am more happy without it. But that's just me.

I think there should be a throw back model, instead of putting all this crap as standard equipment just to say it comes with a-z standard, offer a model without all that stuff and offer it at a much lower price. Then, if you want to offer a model with more options, then by all means do so. It will probably sell much better than the stripper. However, what else is out there offered with very little other than a powerful engine and rwd ? That is what made most of the original muscle cars so exciting, a big ass engine in a small car with not much weighing them down. Hell FM was a rare option. Today most Mustang V6's come with the MAch 500 sound system.

My pain threshhold is 25k right now. I know you guys keep saying that there is an annual increase for inflation, etc. But my income is not rising with inflation and my costs are going up. I will have to find another source of employment to even get to that.

But what do I want for that? A torque abundant V8 and a manual trans. Hopefully it will handle well, and then I'd be happy as hell. I'm a driver first and foremost. I want to enjoy driving my car.

Power windows don't do it for me,
Not hearing the road or the engine really don't do it for me,
a booming stereo don't do it for me,
Heavy ass chrome dipped DUBs don't do it for me,
NAVI don't do it for me,
Power locks don't do it for me,
IPOD docks don't do it for me,
heated seats don't do it for me,
You get the picture.

What does it for me is a stiff chassis that does not flex
A rumbling exhaust
my arm hanging out the window
reaching over the console to crank down the passenger window
Brakes that will make my eyeballs hurt when stomped on
Seats that are either havily side bolstered or easily replacable
Back seats where my kids will be safe
300 ft lbs of Torque
a shifter with a mechanical click every time I shift gears
Three pedals

I don't want anything but performance, everything else just makes it harder to reach and harder to enjoy.

Your dedication to the "no-frills" concept of American muscle (why some classic cars at Barrett-Jackson auctions get higher bids with the famous "AM radio delete" option) is admirable....... but GM wants to sell Camaros. Not just have them ready to race at a moment's notice.

I know, it's not what purists and enthusiasts want. But in the year 2010, stuff like Bluetooth and CD changer with MP3 player will be just as prerequisite of features to get any car to move off a lot as A/C and cruise control.

I honestly believe that if GM came out with a stripper Camaro - a TRUE stripper (the CAR! the CAR!) - with all creature comforts and sound insulation removed they would sell about 1 of them - to you.

$29,000 in 2002 is $35,666 in 2009 assuming the price goes up 3% every year. $25,000 2002 would be $30,746 in 2009 with that same 3%

So if those were the base prices for the Z28 and SS today we should expect $30,000 for the L76 and $35,000 for the LS3. Don't forget a 2010 Camaro would have more base options and things like bigger rims, brakes, etc...
Yep
The difference now, is that I don't believe GM will make the marketing decision to 'push' the V8 cars.

Previously, the V6 cars were loss leaders - now they'll be the main event.

What will the V8's highway mpg be rated at? 24 mpg? 25mpg?
What if by '10/'11 GM needs a corporate average of 29 or 30? Heck, I don't even think the V6's will get that.

So in this scenario, Camaro will not aid GM in it's CAFE efforts. I think it only makes sense for GM to try and limit Camaro's adverse effects on the corporate average. It would be foolhardy not to.
Yep (except the fuel economy part)
I'm no expert but if the aero work is done correctly and you have a nice automatic with proper 5th and 6th gear selections, I don't really understand how you couldn't get in the upper 20s on the highway.
Yep. A6 will definitely help these cars. M6 GTO's can get upper 20's hwy today, without AFM (they are rated 17/25 MPG).

I think there should be a throw back model, instead of putting all this crap as standard equipment just to say it comes with a-z standard, offer a model without all that stuff and offer it at a much lower price. Then, if you want to offer a model with more options, then by all means do so. It will probably sell much better than the stripper. However, what else is out there offered with very little other than a powerful engine and rwd ? That is what made most of the original muscle cars so exciting, a big ass engine in a small car with not much weighing them down. Hell FM was a rare option. Today most Mustang V6's come with the MAch 500 sound system.

My pain threshhold is 25k right now. I know you guys keep saying that there is an annual increase for inflation, etc. But my income is not rising with inflation and my costs are going up. I will have to find another source of employment to even get to that.

But what do I want for that? A torque abundant V8 and a manual trans. Hopefully it will handle well, and then I'd be happy as hell. I'm a driver first and foremost. I want to enjoy driving my car.

Power windows don't do it for me,
Not hearing the road or the engine really don't do it for me,
a booming stereo don't do it for me,
Heavy ass chrome dipped DUBs don't do it for me,
NAVI don't do it for me,
Power locks don't do it for me,
IPOD docks don't do it for me,
heated seats don't do it for me,
You get the picture.

What does it for me is a stiff chassis that does not flex
A rumbling exhaust
my arm hanging out the window
reaching over the console to crank down the passenger window
Brakes that will make my eyeballs hurt when stomped on
Seats that are either havily side bolstered or easily replacable
Back seats where my kids will be safe
300 ft lbs of Torque
a shifter with a mechanical click every time I shift gears
Three pedals

I don't want anything but performance, everything else just makes it harder to reach and harder to enjoy.

You are not alone here. This has been brought up before. Scott answered quite nicely. Something along the lines of keeping the cost of the Camaro down, it would actually cost MORE to design the door panals and mechanisms for manual windows and such, Thus negating any savings you would have from deleting those "options".

And here's a thought. I'm not sure, but isn't the Mustang built in Dearborn Michigan? Really, I'm not sure. And since GM is building the Camaro in Canada, the reasons being obvious, cheaper and easier to deal with union, and no or lower corporate taxes. If that is the case, then doesn't the Camaro have a price edge on the Mustang? At least on paper?

You are not alone here. This has been brought up before. Scott answered quite nicely. Something along the lines of keeping the cost of the Camaro down, it would actually cost MORE to design the door panals and mechanisms for manual windows and such, Thus negating any savings you would have from deleting those "options".

And here's a thought. I'm not sure, but isn't the Mustang built in Dearborn Michigan? Really, I'm not sure. And since GM is building the Camaro in Canada, the reasons being obvious, cheaper and easier to deal with union, and no or lower corporate taxes. If that is the case, then doesn't the Camaro have a price edge on the Mustang? At least on paper?


Building the car in Canada, I think GM is just trying to live up to a previous aggrement they had with Canadian government and union's
(hundreds of milions of dollars in loans, grants and tax concessions to build cars in Quebec) that thay didnt pay back.

As to cheaper in Canada:
dollar at par now 1$us=1$cd
same type of unions
higher corporate tax (almost 30%)
universal health care the employer pays (ohip)

GTO was just a rebadged Australian car (never available in Canada did not meet safety standards) and from what I've read cost a lot more than previous F bodys, I suspect this new car is going to cost GM a little more to get to market than the GTO.

So anyone holding out for a Camaro that is cheaper than previous GTO, I'm not going to hold my breath.

John

Your dedication to the "no-frills" concept of American muscle (why some classic cars at Barrett-Jackson auctions get higher bids with the famous "AM radio delete" option) is admirable....... but GM wants to sell Camaros. Not just have them ready to race at a moment's notice.

I know, it's not what purists and enthusiasts want. But in the year 2010, stuff like Bluetooth and CD changer with MP3 player will be just as prerequisite of features to get any car to move off a lot as A/C and cruise control.

I honestly believe that if GM came out with a stripper Camaro - a TRUE stripper (the CAR! the CAR!) - with all creature comforts and sound insulation removed they would sell about 1 of them - to you.

Well, if the difference was 1k, then yeah, it wouldn't be worth it. However if it means the difference between 18k and 22k for the 6, I'm all for it. I do understand your point and I am not saying it has to be THE base V6 offered at all dealers. You can go to the Chevy dealer and get a full size stripped out work truck for about 12-13k (after rebates) with a V6 and 2WD. Part of my argument has to do with mileage as well. The companies bitch and moan about how much heavier the cars are getting du to added weight from safety equipment, but that 1000 watt stereo is not light, that double layer of sound deadening is not light, the electric motors in the doors are not light, etc. Did you ever have a passenger in your car and floor it and notice a difference?

I'm not saying it will sell WELL, but I could see at least a few thousand examples sold. If they brought the proper type of attention to it. Get it featured in the right magazines and there would be people out there thinking "that's what I want!". It would not have to be sitting on every dealer lot, but if it was known that this option was available, people would buy it. The main reason to NOT do it is that they make more money off loaded up models.

Why do you think those radio delete cars get more money? People pay more for what they want.

Let's look at it this way as well, what about if you walked into a dealership and wanted to order the top of the line V8, from what people around here are talking about, that will be a 45k car or more. Now, what if you can order the stripper V8 for 23k, and custom order it with the top level V8 and suspension for an additional 10k. Ever hear of COPO? Plus if it is 150 pound lighter it will be slightly faster and handle better.

Let's look at what is out there with two doors for 23k.......... Now, if you don't make much money and 23k is pushing what you can afford, what would you buy? Or, if 28k is going to be really hard for you to afford, putting you in financial difficulties, shaving 5k off that loan could mean a big difference to you.

Also, I understand the reasoning behind power windows being standard, but that is due to the design and engineering being based around power windows, not bot. It would be rather simple to design a door that could accomodate both. The problem is the door is designed to have power windows from the get go without crank windows even being considered. There's no place to put the crank on the door panel and probably no mounting holes for the shaft. That's because it was not considered from the word go.

Progress is great and all, but who really NEEDS this stuff? Sure some of you like it and enjoy it, but do you NEED it? For example, my cell phone, I use it often. However when I forget it at home, I don't panic, sometimes I don't even notice until I arrive where I'm going and put my keys in my pocket. People act like they are not going to sell cars unless it has so many features, I say BS, we're getting too pampered and are paying for it. I want a raw in your face V8 and 5 speed manual trans. A MANS car, not this little girly blue teeth and but massaging comb your hair and put on your make up for you while you are driving BS.

If I had 20k cash I'd buy a 1970 Malibu 2 door V8 (even the 307) with low miles, much faster than I'd buy a loaded up V6 Camaro for nearly 30k. Now if Chevy offers a real muscle car for 25k or less, I'd buy it in a heart beat. That does not mean all the camaros have to be strippers and all have to be cheap, but they should offer somethign for the people like myself, I know I am not that unique.

If your right, there's no COPO II. If I'm right there will be.

Well, if the difference was 1k, then yeah, it wouldn't be worth it. However if it means the difference between 18k and 22k for the 6, I'm all for it. I do understand your point and I am not saying it has to be THE base V6 offered at all dealers. You can go to the Chevy dealer and get a full size stripped out work truck for about 12-13k (after rebates) with a V6 and 2WD. Part of my argument has to do with mileage as well. The companies bitch and moan about how much heavier the cars are getting du to added weight from safety equipment, but that 1000 watt stereo is not light, that double layer of sound deadening is not light, the electric motors in the doors are not light, etc. Did you ever have a passenger in your car and floor it and notice a difference?

I'm not saying it will sell WELL, but I could see at least a few thousand examples sold. If they brought the proper type of attention to it. Get it featured in the right magazines and there would be people out there thinking "that's what I want!". It would not have to be sitting on every dealer lot, but if it was known that this option was available, people would buy it. The main reason to NOT do it is that they make more money off loaded up models.

Why do you think those radio delete cars get more money? People pay more for what they want.

Let's look at it this way as well, what about if you walked into a dealership and wanted to order the top of the line V8, from what people around here are talking about, that will be a 45k car or more. Now, what if you can order the stripper V8 for 23k, and custom order it with the top level V8 and suspension for an additional 10k. Ever hear of COPO? Plus if it is 150 pound lighter it will be slightly faster and handle better.

Let's look at what is out there with two doors for 23k.......... Now, if you don't make much money and 23k is pushing what you can afford, what would you buy? Or, if 28k is going to be really hard for you to afford, putting you in financial difficulties, shaving 5k off that loan could mean a big difference to you.

Also, I understand the reasoning behind power windows being standard, but that is due to the design and engineering being based around power windows, not bot. It would be rather simple to design a door that could accomodate both. The problem is the door is designed to have power windows from the get go without crank windows even being considered. There's no place to put the crank on the door panel and probably no mounting holes for the shaft. That's because it was not considered from the word go.

Progress is great and all, but who really NEEDS this stuff? Sure some of you like it and enjoy it, but do you NEED it? For example, my cell phone, I use it often. However when I forget it at home, I don't panic, sometimes I don't even notice until I arrive where I'm going and put my keys in my pocket. People act like they are not going to sell cars unless it has so many features, I say BS, we're getting too pampered and are paying for it. I want a raw in your face V8 and 5 speed manual trans. A MANS car, not this little girly blue teeth and but massaging comb your hair and put on your make up for you while you are driving BS.

If I had 20k cash I'd buy a 1970 Malibu 2 door V8 (even the 307) with low miles, much faster than I'd buy a loaded up V6 Camaro for nearly 30k. Now if Chevy offers a real muscle car for 25k or less, I'd buy it in a heart beat. That does not mean all the camaros have to be strippers and all have to be cheap, but they should offer somethign for the people like myself, I know I am not that unique.

If your right, there's no COPO II. If I'm right there will be.

Sounds like you want the "Body in White" version which should be available for racers.

Sounds like you want the "Body in White" version which should be available for racers.


pretty much. Lets just hope it is available to the public as well, and for a discounted price, instead of a premium.