everyone dogging GM?

Everyone on here seems to have some hatred for GM because they might or might not bring back the camaro. People saying GM is "self destructing" "GM will never be at the top". I thought GM was doing pretty good, don't they own numerous auto companies? and GMAC?

TONY

Everyone on here seems to have some hatred for GM because they might or might not bring back the camaro. People saying GM is "self destructing" "GM will never be at the top". I thought GM was doing pretty good, don't they own numerous auto companies? and GMAC?

TONY

They are good.

I guess you feel that everything is peachy at GM.

It's true that GM is the world's biggest automaker, and has divisions in Germany, England, and Australia as well as essentially owning Daewoo and have set up shop in China.

BUT... GM's losing market share, their heavily discounted cars and incentives have given them a reputation of being the automotive equivlent of K-Mart, their employee pension & health care costs are eating them alive, it still takes GM 4+ years to get a car to market while everyone else have gotten their time down to 3 years or less, GM is still recovering from the group of senior managers who ran the car side of the business into the dirt by looking at cars as appliences, and at the current moment, outside of the GTO (which GM brought over from Australia) General Motors has not one affordable performance car that isn't a FWD, 4 door version of a car they have been selling for 7-8 years.

BTW: Did you know that much smaller automakers, Ford & Chrysler, make greater profits than GM, despite selling far fewer cars?

GM has no SVT or SRT, Chevrolet's "SS" is stuck on everything from V6 Impalas to extended cab pickup trucks, GM sat on their collective butts naysaying the possibility of making the Cadillac Cien, meanwhile, the much smaller Ford Motor Company produces the Ford GT, and is actually making enough money to support production and earn a small profit. Ford made a commitment to the Mustang that GM refused to do, going so far as to even creating a chassis while GM cancelled Camaro's development on Sigma & dragging their feet on Zeta.

In GM's defense, they do have alot of great stuff in the pipeline, they are getting their act together on quality (after all these years), they rediscovered the car (now that truck sales have flattened), and they are making a very real effort to bring back RWD to the masses.

But GM has done some boneheaded things the past decade as far as enthusiasts and car lovers are concerned. Killing the B-body to use the plant to make even more trucks. Killing the F-body (not just the 4th gen, which was in double overtime to begin with, but the whole car). Producing the Silverado SS and defending it with that sad line about sales (ironically, the truck sold no where near projections) while Ford & Dodge essentially stomped them in performance & Lightning in sales.

In short, GM has a pretty good future as far as performance goes, but their recent past is pathetic, they currently are pretty dull. The Solstice, which was ramrodded at warp speed through by Vice Chairman Lutz himself, still is taking 4 years to get to market.

GM has serious issues, and it doesn't center around the Camaro & Firebird, either. We WANT good things from the General. But we are frustrated that GM just doesn't seem to deliver the goods as quickly as everyone else.

That was a very good post. Where do you find out ford makes more of a profit than GM etc...? Doesn't gm deal with honda too? i think they build duramaxes for them.

TONY

That was a very good post. Where do you find out ford makes more of a profit than GM etc...? Doesn't gm deal with honda too? i think they build duramaxes for them.

TONY
Honda trades their 3.5 OHC V6 in the vue for the Izuzu built deisels in other parts of the world. There isn't a Honda that could handle the Duramax's torque.

This is well spoken.

I guess you feel that everything is peachy at GM.

It's true that GM is the world's biggest automaker, and has divisions in Germany, England, and Australia as well as essentially owning Daewoo and have set up shop in China.

BUT... GM's losing market share, their heavily discounted cars and incentives have given them a reputation of being the automotive equivlent of K-Mart, their employee pension & health care costs are eating them alive, it still takes GM 4+ years to get a car to market while everyone else have gotten their time down to 3 years or less, GM is still recovering from the group of senior managers who ran the car side of the business into the dirt by looking at cars as appliences, and at the current moment, outside of the GTO (which GM brought over from Australia) General Motors has not one affordable performance car that isn't a FWD, 4 door version of a car they have been selling for 7-8 years.

BTW: Did you know that much smaller automakers, Ford & Chrysler, make greater profits than GM, despite selling far fewer cars?

GM has no SVT or SRT, Chevrolet's "SS" is stuck on everything from V6 Impalas to extended cab pickup trucks, GM sat on their collective butts naysaying the possibility of making the Cadillac Cien, meanwhile, the much smaller Ford Motor Company produces the Ford GT, and is actually making enough money to support production and earn a small profit. Ford made a commitment to the Mustang that GM refused to do, going so far as to even creating a chassis while GM cancelled Camaro's development on Sigma & dragging their feet on Zeta.

In GM's defense, they do have alot of great stuff in the pipeline, they are getting their act together on quality (after all these years), they rediscovered the car (now that truck sales have flattened), and they are making a very real effort to bring back RWD to the masses.

But GM has done some boneheaded things the past decade as far as enthusiasts and car lovers are concerned. Killing the B-body to use the plant to make even more trucks. Killing the F-body (not just the 4th gen, which was in double overtime to begin with, but the whole car). Producing the Silverado SS and defending it with that sad line about sales (ironically, the truck sold no where near projections) while Ford & Dodge essentially stomped them in performance & Lightning in sales.

In short, GM has a pretty good future as far as performance goes, but their recent past is pathetic, they currently are pretty dull. The Solstice, which was ramrodded at warp speed through by Vice Chairman Lutz himself, still is taking 4 years to get to market.

GM has serious issues, and it doesn't center around the Camaro & Firebird, either. We WANT good things from the General. But we are frustrated that GM just doesn't seem to deliver the goods as quickly as everyone else.

GM just has its head up its a$$ for now .

My GM Brand Loyalty has been fading.. Only reason it hasn't competely disappeared is cause a few traces of life: C6, CTSv, STS, XLR, GTO, Malibu..

These supposidly next wave of new cars coming out in the near future is either going to make and break it for me.. They have to be the total package.

You have to understand that everyone here bashes GM because of there apparent lack off attention for enthusiasts, or so everyone here says.
I dont see the need to bash GM. They have several great "enthusiast" cars as well as several great everyday cars coming.
With more new cars coming out of the car factories and into show rooms, we will see who ends up on top.
If you want to think of it like this...DCX has had 3 very successful cars: SRT4,Magnum and 300.
And Ford...Ford has 2 cars that look to be the lead of this "Year of the Car". The Mustang and the GT. The 500 and crew all seem to be having a lot of problems.
But if you look at all that, all the cars I mentioned are "enthusiast" driven cars. Hemi sedans and wagons, 550hp super cars and 300hp pony cars.

If you look at it, No one is pushing the kind of product out now like GM. So take all this hate on GM with a grain of salt. A lot of people on here are still upset with GM for killing many of the icons.

If you want to talk about age...How long does it take Ford to come out with a rebadge Mazda 6? It sounds like it wont be here till MY06, which would make that 3 years. Its not like Ford had to create the chassis, wait for engine production, and create a plant, unlike the Solstice.
"But Ford got the GT done in 18 months!!" Yeah...when you throw MILLIONS AND MILLIONS..perhaps Billions of money into a program, as well as tons of manpower to develop something that is the "Pace Car for a Comapny", things tend to get done faster.

In short, GM has a pretty good future as far as performance goes, but their recent past is pathetic, they currently are pretty dull. The Solstice, which was ramrodded at warp speed through by Vice Chairman Lutz himself, still is taking 4 years to get to market.

GM has serious issues, and it doesn't center around the Camaro & Firebird, either. We WANT good things from the General. But we are frustrated that GM just doesn't seem to deliver the goods as quickly as everyone else.

GM's affordable market is just so freakin' boring... its insane. Nothing special.

People want to feel connected to something like a vehicle, if they don't, they buy elsewhere. I bought a brand new 2002 Nissan Altima a few years ago and probably would have considered GM if they offered anything of interest.

GM ---HAS--- to get it together. I'm sorry to sound "bashing" but come on... a company with like 80+ years of car sales under its belt should be able to produce a line of cars that consists of something better than the Malibu, Cobalt, and Impala... oh, lets not forget teh Aveo.

I don't count the Vette because its not like the average person can afford such a car, nor can fit more than 2 in, so its not really part of the lineup for me. People living in the real world are only being offered the ho-hum lineup from GM.

Look at Pontiac for example. The GA GT has never been anything special. Mostly an appearance package, with minor performance addons. Look at the GTP, while its got a newer look and still a SC V6, its still an old body and a powerplant that has been around in some form or another for a WHILE now. Switch it up a bit already! Its just crazy how long some of these body styles last with GM. The GP body has been around since 97... thats almost 8 model years! Look at the Cavalier... 95-04... 9 years! Look at Honda. Sorry to say it, but they are selling cars and have a following both for reliability and the tuner crowd. Look at the Civic: 92-95, 95-00, 01-05. The accord. 90-93, 94-97, 98-01 or something along those lines... Never the same thing twice... Its like food - Can you eat the same thing every day for 9 years and still be excited about it?

Make something exciting. Look at Nissan for example. Look at their lineup. The entry level Senta, avail in VSpec config, the Altima, available with a stout V6, and the Maxima with just about as much power from a V6 as the Lt1 gave us in the Z28! They still have their 350Z for sports, but in any model you look at, there is something for the everyday driver and something for the enthousiast..

COME ON GM - DO SOMETHING BEFORE YOU HAVE _NO_ MARKETSHARE!

FYI - If any of you think we are complaning, you're d@mn right! I'm tired of seeing my brand repeatedly let me down. I have been faithful to this brand almost my entire life and I am sick of seeing it go down the tubes. I'm tired of seeing it fading away and tired of seeing its pathetic offerings to the public. Its irritating. Its like the genius in school that never did the work. So much potential, just wasted. AHHHHH... <breathe>

Ford and GM have been playing profit tag for a while now. Both suck since 95% of the profit is coming from their finance divisions. Hyundai and Nissan are the companies to watch.

-B

*puts on rosy glasses and blinders*GM is the best....none should EVER complain about or criticize them:).

jokes aside, GM is doing pretty well, but they still dissapoint at times.

*puts on rosy glasses and blinders*GM is the best....none should EVER complain about or criticize them:).

jokes aside, GM is doing pretty well, but they still dissapoint at times.

If GM's doing "well", I'd love to see what a successful car company is going these days...

Ford is on track to earn about $7 Billion...I think that's successful considering they were losing money not too long ago.

If GM's doing "well", I'd love to see what a successful car company is going these days...

I meant well in the sense that they have made improvements in quality, interior (compare cobalt to cavalier and c6 to c5), and so on. Sales seem to be doing a bit better as well and they've worked magic on establishing Cadillac as a world-class luxury brand. Importing Monero (sp??), and going with a low priced roadster like the solstice was a great idea for pontiac and kind of fills the void left by the late firebird. Overall, they aren't doing anywhere near as well as the smaller Toyota, and 95% of their cars still don't appeal to me, but i would say given the improvements/steps they've made and taken, the future looks brighter for them than it did a couple of years back.

While bettering the interiors is great, its still not going to cut it for most of us. GM may be working on great things, but lets see them now!!

I mean, Toyota, Nissan, etc already has some great cars to choose from. We all know that GM has things "in progress", but lets see them actually get off of their duff and sell some of these amazing cars!

My Z28 was on it's last legs and it was time to get something new. I got myself a new car a month or two ago.

What did the Chevy dealership have to offer me? Cavalier? Monte Carlo?

No thanks.

I was getting scheduled maint. done on my tC, and I walked over to a nearby Chevy dealership to look around. Nothing but trucks facing the street, and the cars they had tucked away....eh.

Malibu is a good step, but the styling needs work. It just screams blech to me. I really want the thing to succeed, but I don't know anyone who LIKES how it looks. In a field with Camry, Accord, and Mazda 6, you can't compete with something like Malibu, or the god-awful Taurus for that matter. But at least Ford is in there with the Mazda 6. Malibu is getting there, but getting there isn't good enough.

Or the compact field is even worse....Corolla XRS, Scion tC, Focus, GTI, Civic...vs. Cavalier? Cobalt should be a good step, hopefully it drives as good as it looks. Whenever it actually comes out it'll be much needed.

And affordable performance? Mustang, RX-8, 350Z, WRX, EVO, vs what? The GTP? The GTO is too expensive to be classed in this field, and even if you do count it, it's just not a car that gets the public's blood boiling. I point out GTOs to my friends whenever I see them and the response is something like "That's a GTO? Oh...."

There's a black GTO at my work here. I pointed it out to my GF, because we just saw a thing on the old GTO so it was familiar to her. It was next to a blue Hyundai Tiburon GT. She goes..."the Blue one?" "no, the black one." "Oh....really? I figured it must be the blue one, because the black one doesn't look like anything."

GM needs an injection of excitement into every car they make. Look at Mazda. The 3, the 6, the RX-8, the MX-5....everything they make is fun looking, and is usually hailed as very fun to drive. Why can't we get that out of GM?

Why should I care about GM? They don't cater to me, I want a RWD, manual tranny car with ok power. Doesn't even have to be up to ls1 standards. But what do I get? A Cobalt? I might consider GTPs but they don't even come with manuals, so I couldn't even settle on the FWD drivetrain.

Closest thing GM I woudl look at are some Subarus, but Ford is the one peaking my interest at the moment.

Why should I care about GM? They don't cater to me, I want a RWD, manual tranny car with ok power. Doesn't even have to be up to ls1 standards. But what do I get? A Cobalt? I might consider GTPs but they don't even come with manuals, so I couldn't even settle on the FWD drivetrain.

That pretty much sums up how I feel.

My Z28 was on it's last legs and it was time to get something new. I got myself a new car a month or two ago.

What did the Chevy dealership have to offer me? Cavalier? Monte Carlo?

No thanks.

I was getting scheduled maint. done on my tC, and I walked over to a nearby Chevy dealership to look around. Nothing but trucks facing the street, and the cars they had tucked away....eh.

Malibu is a good step, but the styling needs work. It just screams blech to me. I really want the thing to succeed, but I don't know anyone who LIKES how it looks. In a field with Camry, Accord, and Mazda 6, you can't compete with something like Malibu, or the god-awful Taurus for that matter. But at least Ford is in there with the Mazda 6. Malibu is getting there, but getting there isn't good enough.

Or the compact field is even worse....Corolla XRS, Scion tC, Focus, GTI, Civic...vs. Cavalier? Cobalt should be a good step, hopefully it drives as good as it looks. Whenever it actually comes out it'll be much needed.

And affordable performance? Mustang, RX-8, 350Z, WRX, EVO, vs what? The GTP? The GTO is too expensive to be classed in this field, and even if you do count it, it's just not a car that gets the public's blood boiling. I point out GTOs to my friends whenever I see them and the response is something like "That's a GTO? Oh...."

There's a black GTO at my work here. I pointed it out to my GF, because we just saw a thing on the old GTO so it was familiar to her. It was next to a blue Hyundai Tiburon GT. She goes..."the Blue one?" "no, the black one." "Oh....really? I figured it must be the blue one, because the black one doesn't look like anything."

GM needs an injection of excitement into every car they make. Look at Mazda. The 3, the 6, the RX-8, the MX-5....everything they make is fun looking, and is usually hailed as very fun to drive. Why can't we get that out of GM?

Actualy, I LOVE my Maxx's styling. In black, its a very good looking car, and with its +100% increase in sales last month, I think there are more people that agree with me then you.
And you must be OUT OF YOUR MIND to think that the Taurus is better then the Malibu. It sells because Ford puts all the money they can, and sit it on the hood, in the trunk, in the map pockets and glove box. My dad has on 03 Taurus, and he now sees what I was trying to tell him when I wanted him to look at the Malibu Maxx. Too late, so I got one.

Cobalt is gunna be huge for Chevy. I kinda wish I waited and got a Cobalt SS in red....but oh well, I needed the room of the Maxx.
Since when is the 30k Evo "affordable" to the GTO's 32k sticker price? How about the 30k+ Sticker of teh RX-8, G35, and 350Z? Since when did they become afforable?
GTO is a BARGIN for the price. The RX8 is overrated, as is the 350Z and G35.

The GTO never got the publics blood boiling do to its "racer" good looks...it was the HUGE 389 Pontiac engine under the hood, and a factory-made hot rod that got people wanting more. The GTO WAS the ultimate sleeper... thats what made it popular. Not stripe packages, not wings, not neon yellow paint...it was about the performance, and this GTO packs that and more.
Remember, the GTO was a Tempest with chrome accents on the hood.

Outside of the Mustang....what else does Ford have that you can buy? That super-sports car, the 500? How about that killer new Focus that got all the coolness taken out of it? What does Ford have? Nada.

Actualy, I LOVE my Maxx's styling. In black, its a very good looking car, and with its +100% increase in sales last month, I think there are more people that agree with me then you.
And you must be OUT OF YOUR MIND to think that the Taurus is better then the Malibu. It sells because Ford puts all the money they can, and sit it on the hood, in the trunk, in the map pockets and glove box. My dad has on 03 Taurus, and he now sees what I was trying to tell him when I wanted him to look at the Malibu Maxx. Too late, so I got one.

Cobalt is gunna be huge for Chevy. I kinda wish I waited and got a Cobalt SS in red....but oh well, I needed the room of the Maxx.
Since when is the 30k Evo "affordable" to the GTO's 32k sticker price? How about the 30k+ Sticker of teh RX-8, G35, and 350Z? Since when did they become afforable?
GTO is a BARGIN for the price. The RX8 is overrated, as is the 350Z and G35.

The GTO never got the publics blood boiling do to its "racer" good looks...it was the HUGE 389 Pontiac engine under the hood, and a factory-made hot rod that got people wanting more. The GTO WAS the ultimate sleeper... thats what made it popular. Not stripe packages, not wings, not neon yellow paint...it was about the performance, and this GTO packs that and more.
Remember, the GTO was a Tempest with chrome accents on the hood.

Outside of the Mustang....what else does Ford have that you can buy? That super-sports car, the 500? How about that killer new Focus that got all the coolness taken out of it? What does Ford have? Nada.
You must have misunderstood, I was noting the Taurus as one of the few cars that's much worse than the Malibu.

Ford doesn't have much in the compact arena since killing the SVT Focus. Which is why I don't own a shiny new Ford right now. ;) The problem is, GM has to compete with everyone, not just with Ford.

I dunno...Malibu and the Camry are pretty tight. Camry does have it on space, but as far as ride and performance, they are pretty much spot on.
The Accord, as well as the Altima and Mazda 6 are more of what the Pontiac G6 is made for. Malibu is for the more sedate family, while the G6 is for someone wanting a bit more.

All 3 auto companies have been run into the ground in recent years.

Ford's Jac Nasser & company attempted to move everything upscale (some of the things they planned were simply incredible), but they financed it by skimping on customer service & and bled it by nickel & diming it out of other products till it had image disasters such as the Explorer-Firestone debacle & the V6 headgasket catastrophe.

Chrysler had an aggressive product launch schedule and vaults full of cash when Mercedes merged with them. Then, Daimler raided Chrysler's funds to finance Smart, Mercedes Benz's new products, and jawdropping bonuses to it's assembly line workers in Germany (over $20,000 per person), while freezing Chrysler's product plans, firing it's management, and decimating it's workforce.

GM hired a bunch of top management people from Proctor & Gamble and other consumer product areas that had zero to do with cars. These people, as would be expected from a group whose success has been dependent on Consumer Digest type magazines and bottom line profits, viewed cars as FWD appliences and put money where the profits were: Trucks.

Ford fired Nasser, and put someone in charge who had a personal stake in the company due to his name being on the building. Daimler, faced with Chrysler dragging the whole company down (including MB & Smart) finally got wise, and released money & product for Chrysler at a furious pace.

Meanwhile, at GM, although they are now setting up for a phenominal amount of cars (enthusiast based cars), in typical GM fashion, unless there is a federal regulation gun to their head, they are going about it at a snail's pace, or going round & round trying to get anything to market.

Chrysler already had plans and products all but ready years ago, so I can see why they are getting things to market so freaking quickly. Ford's cutting corners by using Volvo & Mazda chassis so they can throw more money on better design phenominal interiors. GM has switched into "overkill" mode (is the market really big enough for 2 or 3 Kappa Roadsters?) but is taking normal GM time getting these cars out.

Chrysler already had plans and products all but ready years ago, so I can see why they are getting things to market so freaking quickly.

I can see why as well. Releasing something as freaking lame as the "new" Charger took no creativity whatsoever. :p

Actualy, I LOVE my Maxx's styling. In black, its a very good looking car, and with its +100% increase in sales last month, I think there are more people that agree with me then you.

Shall we take a vote on that? If that were true, you'd see more of them running around. In Idaho Falls, a city of 55,000, there are less than 5 of them running around, Sedan and Maxx combined. My parents just bought an Avalanche and we asked the dealer about low Malibu sales and all he could do was point to the car (Malibu) and roll his eyes. :rolleyes:

So, I respect the fact that you like your Maxx but lets be realistic here, in the public's eye its not the prettiest girl at the ball. For the price, you can get a much more "pleasing to the eye" styled car.

Take a look at sales big guy. We can vote here on an "enthusiast" board, or we can look at real life.

To your credit, my girlfriend did say that the new Malibu looked "pretty nice" when she bought her Camry.

My Z28 was on it's last legs and it was time to get something new. I got myself a new car a month or two ago.

What did the Chevy dealership have to offer me? Cavalier? Monte Carlo?

No thanks.

I was getting scheduled maint. done on my tC, and I walked over to a nearby Chevy dealership to look around. Nothing but trucks facing the street, and the cars they had tucked away....eh.



1. Shame on you.:rolleyes: Old Z28s never die, they don't even fade away. Old Z28s get engine rebuilds, bodywork and renewed interior trim.

2. The Scion tC has an awesome sunroof, kinda like a Mercedes with a Panorama roof. I'll bet the glass roof was what sold you on the Scion.

Prediction: In 5 years a "Panorama" style glass roof will be a nearly universal option.

Kudos to Toyota for being the first to rip-off Mercedes!:bow:

1. Shame on you.:rolleyes: Old Z28s never die, they don't even fade away. Old Z28s get engine rebuilds, bodywork and renewed interior trim.

2. The Scion tC has an awesome sunroof, kinda like a Mercedes with a Panorama roof. I'll bet the glass roof was what sold you on the Scion.

Prediction: In 5 years a "Panorama" style glass roof will be a nearly universal option.

Kudos to Toyota for being the first to rip-off Mercedes!:bow:

The sunroof is pretty cool. ;) The overall look of the car got me, as well as the fact that it's fairly powerful for a 4 cylinder. But the niceties like the MP3 player, 17" rims that actually look good and the sunroof sealed the deal.

My Z28 had fouled one or both cats when the optispark died. So I was driving around with a check engine light, and exhaust shops wouldn't touch the thing unless it was to put OEM parts in it. All the quotes hovered around $1000 just to replace the cat. O_o Plus a few other problems it was having, it just wasn't worth the money for me anymore. I've also been looking for something more fuel efficient, so I can focus more on my true moneysink, the Cougar. ;)

OK...I'm getting tired of accusations.

I'll reprint something I posted to another site.....please read and consider....



(QUOTE:)

I am forbidden to talk about future product plans.....sorry...but that's just the way it is.

Never say never....because never is a longgggg time.

I'd ask you all to keep something in mind as you discuss the auto industry: There is never one, and only one reason for something happening (or not happening) Invariably, it is a number of things that converge to cause an event. (yeah...sounds kinda PR, no?)

One thing I've not yet seen anyone bring up on any site about GM is this: The vast number of Divisions and Brands that it has.....and the huge amount of resources needed to keep the Divisions healthy in terms of product.

If you are Ford North America, you essentially have three divisions: Ford - Lincoln - Mercury. DCX? Chrysler - Dodge - Jeep.

GM? Chevy, Pontiac, Buick (whoops, almost typed Olds!) Cadillac, Saturn, GMC truck, and Hummer.

That's a LOT of Divisions...all of which need a product portfolio to stay in business...and to make it worthwhile for a dealer to invest his/her money in a francise to get a return on their investment.


Does anyone want to venture an educated guess as to what it costs JUST to differentiate one product from another (i.e. Camaro/Firebird?) ...or the costs to market each product? ......or what a completely new vehicle line costs these days????

Now...I don't mean to make excuses, but I don't think the average person considers this very real issue.

GM is in the business to make money for its stockholders. If you have a retirement fund or are invested in mutual funds, .....or have a pension fund, you are probably invested in GM.......which means you'd better pray we do good financially!

Now...I would doubt that you'd find many people as crazy (and I DO MEAN CRAZY) about Camaros and Firebirds as I am........but as much as I love them, I would have to support the decision to re-do the Impala before I would support the decision to re-do the Camaro....why? Look at the market. (no, I don't mean look at the cars on the street in your particular town...).I mean look at the cold hard facts: Americans, for the most part love their FWD Sedans and their SUVs and their Trucks. The numbers published each month by RL Polk will bear this out....top sellers? Accord/Camry/Taurus/Cavalier/Impala/Grand Am.....and what do all these vehicles share in common? (hint: three letters...first is F...last is D....middle is W....)

And, to my knowledge, no one yet has had a loaded gun held to their head and told "you WILL buy an SUV!!!!" We have the freedom of choice. People, for the most part buy on needs...then on wants.

Now....I am NOT saying anything to break anyone's dream of a Camaro coming back. I have said...and will continue to say..."have faith."

While it is easy to criticize GM for it's decisions, I submit to you that IF you knew all of the issues surrounding the market today (and in 2010..which is what we're looking at right now..) you would understand some of the decisions made......why they were made, and perhaps have a better understanding. And you would realize that it is not run by a bunch of morons.

As to success? Look at September sales figures for Chevy....in fact, look at all of 2004.........not too shabby.

OK...viewpoint over............

Come to the Fbody Invasion at the National Corvette Museum Sept 15-17, 2005 and we'll discuss it in person!!! (QUOTE)


The Cobalt is an 18 month car.

The Solstice should NEVER have been shown when it was shown in my humble opinion.....there was a fair amount of time between the time it was shown...and the time it was actually given the green light (not the public green light...the REAL green light) so it is not a 4 year car.

I guess I'm tired of the shots being taken at GM when you haven't looked at the entire issues.

(sorry...having a bad day......no patience.....)

Wow, didnt know the Cobalt was an 18 month car. IMO, it doesnt look like it. Ive been excited about the Cobalt since the first "oops" shots on GMI.

Mr.Father, Id like to ask how much involvement do you have in other Chevy products such as Cobalt, Malibu, and Impala?

I'm not dogging GM for not bringing back the F-Body. IMHO, I couldn't really care less if it did or did not come back. Sure, it'd be cool if it did, but I still have my 3rdgen and someday I'll have my 4thgen, so my plate for now is looking pretty full.

As far as market, I can respect what you're saying about the market and I see sales figures doing ok, but where's the excitement? Again, ruling out a 5thgen Fbody and the Vette, what does Chevy have to offer me? A brand that I've considered myself "devoted" to...

Here's my biggest problem... Take the Cobalt for example. People closely compare the engineering of this car to the 1999 VW Golf! A car that was probably engineered 2-4 years prior... lets say 1995... So the "All-New" Cobalt is still in the 90's... mid 90s. The S/C option is very attractive, and I am hoping to be impressed with the interior, but let me ask this question... Are we being given a 1995ish car in 2005? Is this car truly going to be up to par? I keep my fingers crossed. I hope it succeeds and shows GM (Chevy in particular) that there is a need for a car that will generate some excitement with people who don't make 6 digit figures and drive Vettes.

I'm probably rambling now. I truly want to see Chevy succeed. As I've said before, GM as a whole I think is doing well... But anymore I see Chevy's car lineup and it screams RENTAL CAR to me. That's not what I want to see from a company that I've stood by for so long.

I'm dogging GM because the biggest automobile manufacturer in the world should have a full product line.

Where are the wagons and 5 doors hatches?
Where is the compact ute?
How about something smaller than a 3/4 ton with diesel? Or a Suburban/Tahoe with a diesel?
How about a manual transmission in something other than an econobox or high end vehicle?
How about a convertible?
And yes, the pony car market should be covered.
Instead of spending millions on grill engineering how about actually differentiating the product?

We'll be in the market next May. Right now 2 "GM" products might be in the running ....the Vibe (Toyota) and the Optra5 (Daewoo) :rolleyes:

5dr hatch and wagon? How about teh Maxx?
Compact Ute is in Oz...but GM does make it. Just not for North American Consumption
You can get a small 2500 with teh Diesel. Who else makes a small truck diesel? Only Jeep, and its not a truck nor is it out yet. Anyone else?

All the markets you talk about are tiny and not major for the exception of teh wagon/5dr hatch.

Where are the wagons and 5 doors hatches?

Malibu Maxx. Erm... who the h**l wants a station wagon anyway? Are they gonna put the fake wood sticker on the sides again? Wagons suck.

Err... sorry Al... I just hate wagons.


Where is the compact ute?

Relatively speaking, isn't an Equinox compact? Didn't the CAMI compacts sell like condoms at a convent?


How about something smaller than a 3/4 ton with diesel? Or a Suburban/Tahoe with a diesel?

Uh... why in the world would anybody buy a diesel for a vehicle with a 1/2 ton's towing capacity? No point in making diesel Suburbans and Tahoe, nobody wants one.


How about a manual transmission in something other than an econobox or high end vehicle?

G6? Solstice?


How about a convertible?

Lesse here...

G6
Solstice
Corvette
XLR
And... certain... umm... other vehicles early in the development process.

5dr hatch and wagon? How about teh Maxx?
Compact Ute is in Oz...but GM does make it. Just not for North American Consumption
You can get a small 2500 with teh Diesel. Who else makes a small truck diesel? Only Jeep, and its not a truck nor is it out yet. Anyone else?

All the markets you talk about are tiny and not major for the exception of teh wagon/5dr hatch.

The Maxx isn't a compact.

Sorry, I meant compact SUV, not ute.

2500HD & small is an oxymoron, and yes, I'll be taking a serious look at the Liberty diesel when it arrives.

IMO the biggest manufacturer in the world should be able to cover all the markets. If they spent the money used to badge engineer 3 and 4 versions of the same basic vehiclel to differentiate it instead ...take the Mazda6 as an example ... they would be further ahead.

Malibu Maxx. Erm... who the h**l wants a station wagon anyway? Are they gonna put the fake wood sticker on the sides again? Wagons suck.

Err... sorry Al... I just hate wagons.


See above. The Maxx isn't compact. I'd like the utility of a small SUV without having to drive a gas guzzling brick that handles like a marshmallow.

It's Art. :D


Relatively speaking, isn't an Equinox compact? Didn't the CAMI compacts sell like condoms at a convent?

The 'nox is as big as our Envoy. When was the last time the Tracker got updated?

Uh... why in the world would anybody buy a diesel for a vehicle with a 1/2 ton's towing capacity? No point in making diesel Suburbans and Tahoe, nobody wants one.

Fuel economy. I'd like to be able to tow the Camaros with more than a 125 mile range (That's what our Envoy gets)

G6? Solstice?


None in showrooms around here.

G6
Solstice
Corvette
XLR
And... certain... umm... other vehicles early in the development process.

I guess I forgot the affordable and 4 seater part. How many years will GM have gone without a 4 seat convertible by the time the G6 is in showrooms?

OK...I'm getting tired of accusations.



(sorry...having a bad day......no patience.....)
Boy it does sound like you were having a bad day Scott, Well I will not see you in Sept of next year but I will hopefully see you in NOV of this year. Even if I have to call in *cough cough I am dying here* :eek:

Next time you are having a bad day call me & I will bring over your blankey (got ya one the babysitter jokes :rolleyes: )

Gas guzzling? 25-28mpg is gas-guzzling, then I guess so.

The Nox is the replacement for the Tracker. IMO, a good move for Chevy.

How many other people have a 4 seater convertable? Toyota's Solara, Mustang....and then you have teh luxury cars.

This is the 2nd time I've seen a post from RP talking about how GM has so many divisions to support and that's why things take so much time/money. As a consumer, that means nothing to me, really, other than GM is too big and slow of a company to keep up with what I want. If having so many divisions is so troublesome, why have so many divisions? I think that's one of the things people have spoken ill of GM for for a while. GM has to spend millions making 5 versions of every SUV and that's why they can't put out the kind of cars we want to buy as enthusiasts? OK, that doesn't mean I want to buy your cars any more. Just tells me that the company needs to get it's act together.

Not meaning to be rude, RP. Just doesn't seem like a comfort to me, as a customer and an enthusiast, to be told that GM has too many divisions to make the car I want.

Face it, Camaro's and Firebirds dont sell in the numbers, and arent such a large part of GM's income as Malibu's, Impala's, Grand Prix', and other sedans.
I would much rather like to see the sedans and trucks get a massive overhaul before GM comes out with a Camaro. As much as I would love one, Id wish GM as a company starts kicking tail. Its gunna be hard because GM is so large, but GM needs to use that.
GM, keep coming out with great product.

GM has to spend millions making 5 versions of every SUV and that's why they can't put out the kind of cars we want to buy as enthusiasts? OK, that doesn't mean I want to buy your cars any more. Just tells me that the company needs to get it's act together.

Not meaning to be rude, RP. Just doesn't seem like a comfort to me, as a customer and an enthusiast, to be told that GM has too many divisions to make the car I want.
First of all What do you see most out there on the roads? SUVs & Trucks, we are in the age of the the bigger it is the better it is. Thats why GM has so many types of SUVs & Trucks out there.

Second of all We have to realize something, there are drivers then there are enthusiasts. We enthusiasts are a small bunch of buyers & when we buy a car we love then we dont go out & buy another one right away (Normally), So why should GM make cars that the enthusiasts want while losing sales? when they can make sales buy building the cars the DRIVERS would want?



God now I am sounding like you Scott lol, Hopefully in 4yrs I will being doing my internship in the big D :eek:

I understand the point for volume cars. But it keeps being mentioned about how expensive it is for GM to put out a car, moreso than any other brand, because they have to make so many versions of it.

From Red:
One thing I've not yet seen anyone bring up on any site about GM is this: The vast number of Divisions and Brands that it has.....and the huge amount of resources needed to keep the Divisions healthy in terms of product.

If you are Ford North America, you essentially have three divisions: Ford - Lincoln - Mercury. DCX? Chrysler - Dodge - Jeep.

GM? Chevy, Pontiac, Buick (whoops, almost typed Olds!) Cadillac, Saturn, GMC truck, and Hummer.

That's a LOT of Divisions...all of which need a product portfolio to stay in business...and to make it worthwhile for a dealer to invest his/her money in a francise to get a return on their investment.


Sounds to me like having all of those divisions is a lot more of a burden than it is a blessing. If Ford and Chrysler only have to worry about a few brands....well, it seems to be working for them, isn't it? Especially as far as me, the guy looking for a fun to drive, nice looking car, is concerned. Just sounds to me like the reason we're being given for GM not competing well is it's so hard/expensive for them to compete with all of the brands they have dragging them down. Seems like the problem is pretty obvious there.

Sounds to me like having all of those divisions is a lot more of a burden than it is a blessing. If Ford and Chrysler only have to worry about a few brands....well, it seems to be working for them, isn't it? Especially as far as me, the guy looking for a fun to drive, nice looking car, is concerned. Just sounds to me like the reason we're being given for GM not competing well is it's so hard/expensive for them to compete with all of the brands they have dragging them down. Seems like the problem is pretty obvious there.

Ford & Daimmler has a lot more brands then you think, & Lovely Scott forgot (or just didnt want to say) to state a few of GMs other brands as well. Like Holden & a few others.

As I stated before GM is bringing the cars/trucks/SUVs that the DRIVERs want, not what we want.

How many of you guys say you are loyal GM owners but own a Ford truck or even a Dodge? Every car/ truck I own & there are 4 cars & 2 trucks have bowties on them.





Gee someone is going to be upset when I say this but I dont care.

If you dont like the ride then get off & never come back

Some of you guys act worse then my two young kids when they dont get their way. Scott has told every one to Wait & see what the future is bringing, I think you are going to like it but no one is willing to wait.

How many of you guys say you are loyal GM owners but own a Ford truck or even a Dodge? Every car/ truck I own & there are 4 cars & 2 trucks have bowties on them.

Gee someone is going to be upset when I say this but I dont care.

If you dont like the ride then get off & never come back

Some of you guys act worse then my two young kids when they dont get their way. Scott has told every one to Wait & see what the future is bringing, I think you are going to like it but no one is willing to wait.

THANK YOU. I've come to the point with this site and this forum section, with all the childish whining going on about GM, I don't even read a lot of it anymore. "Boo hoo, GM is losing market share!" "Why o why did they stop making the FBody?" "Where's my clutch!?" "GM's making nothing now for little old me but dull SUV's!" :rolleyes:

Gad what a bunch of whiners. Some news for you thumbsuckers... GM's got a nice market share and their quality is more than competitive. New products like the GTO are better in just about every dimension than the now-dated FBody. The reason for fewer standard trans options on modern vehicles is the declining POPULARITY of the option, not the rarity of the option on dealer lots. And anyone who thinks GM's new stuff is dull has not driven a C6, CTS-V, Saturn Redline Quad Coupe, GTO, or Grand Prix CompG! :p

The kind of attitude in the last 2 posts is exactly the kind of attitude that's hurting the company. "You don't like it? Leave and never come back!"

Already left. I was looking for a new car and the general had nothing to offer me. Never come back? Well, things keep like they are and looks like it won't be too tough. I'd love to see GM making fun cars. I'm a GM/domestic fan, otherwise I just wouldn't care what and I'd lump them in with Hyundai and Kia as crappy cars that I'd never buy. But I know GM has something better in them, and it's ****ty to see such potential wasted.



Ford & Daimmler has a lot more brands then you think, & Lovely Scott forgot (or just didnt want to say) to state a few of GMs other brands as well. Like Holden & a few others.



That goes against the point it seems RP was trying to make with GM having so many brands they have to design for and what a burden it is on the company. In reality, Ford has a lot more than Lincoln/Mercury (Mazda, Volvo, Jag, Aston) but still seems to move much more swiftly in the market. *shrug* I was just taking what RP said at face value, and commenting that it seems like the brands are more of a problem than a help, per what he said.

THANK YOU. I've come to the point with this site and this forum section, with all the childish whining going on about GM, I don't even read a lot of it anymore. "Boo hoo, GM is losing market share!" "Why o why did they stop making the FBody?" "Where's my clutch!?" "GM's making nothing now for little old me but dull SUV's!" :rolleyes:

Gad what a bunch of whiners. Some news for you thumbsuckers... GM's got a nice market share and their quality is more than competitive. New products like the GTO are better in just about every dimension than the now-dated FBody. The reason for fewer standard trans options on modern vehicles is the declining POPULARITY of the option, not the rarity of the option on dealer lots. And anyone who thinks GM's new stuff is dull has not driven a C6, CTS-V, Saturn Redline Quad Coupe, GTO, or Grand Prix CompG! :p

God forbid we want the car company we're fans of to make cars we want to buy! The manual transmission is alive and well. Go to any non-GM dealer's lots and look at their compact cars. You'll find plenty of manual transmission cars. Young people these days like having a manual transmission, it makes even a boring and slow car feel fun to drive and sporty. "Sport Shift" automatics don't offer the same feeling. Pressing a button and then waiting a few moments while the transmission decides to shift does not a fun time make. And that isn't a jab at GM, they suck in all brands of cars. You're right, I haven't driven a C6, a CTS-V, or a GTO. Not all of us are looking to drop $30-50k on a car, or can afford to. The Redline is too pricey for what it is. Pricewise, it competes with the SRT-4. Not performance wise. Never even drove one because it was too pricey for what it was. But it is absolutely a good step, and a trend I hope GM continues to follow with the Cobalt. The Grand Prix CompG? I guess it's nice, if you're a fan of the Grand Prix. I never have been, myself. And in the price range, there are a lot better values if I want something sporty. Intrepid, Accord V6, Legacy GT and Mazda 6 all come in within $2k above or below the GP GT2 (based off of edmunds TMV) and all sport a good chunk more HP. The Mazda 6 is the lowest with 20 more hp, every other car has at least 40 more hp. All of the imports have a manual transmission option, as well. Compare the GTP and the Pontiac takes the performance edge slightly over the others, and comes in comparable to the higher priced cars in the TMV. And the only way the GP is competitive at all is through rebates, which it seems like GM is going to be shackled with forever. The G6 is supposed to replace the Grand Prix or the Grand Am? It seems like another really good step.

A lot of us are just frustrated, since in a lot of people's opinions, GM has really only had the F-Body and the 'vette going for it recently, and the one we can afford was canned. So while a lot of us are going out and buying new cars, it's frustrating to look over to the GM lot, get bored, and walk over to TOYOTA of all places and find a handful of sporty looking, fun to drive cars. "I promise it'll get better!" doesn't put a better car in my driveway.

GM Loyalty? I've bought nothing but GM since my first new car in 1978 ...I've bought or leased new GM's in 96, 98, 99 & 01, and there are 5 GM's on the driveway now. I also own GM stock. RP knows I'd rather push a Chevy than drive a Ford ...

Fuel economy? Big Als Z ...what vehicle are you referring to that gets 25 - 28 MPG? My '02 Envoy is averaging 14.7 MPG, My former '96 Jimmy averaged 18.6 MPG, my '99 Camaro is averaging 20.4 MPG.

Perhaps being from the Canadian prairie skews my perspective but I honestly believe there are way too may holes in the GM product line-up, and saying it's "in the pipe" will be little consolation in May when the Envoy lease is up. :(

Sorry about rant, I'll shut up now! :D

This is the 2nd time I've seen a post from RP talking about how GM has so many divisions to support and that's why things take so much time/money. As a consumer, that means nothing to me, really, other than GM is too big and slow of a company to keep up with what I want. If having so many divisions is so troublesome, why have so many divisions? I think that's one of the things people have spoken ill of GM for for a while. GM has to spend millions making 5 versions of every SUV and that's why they can't put out the kind of cars we want to buy as enthusiasts? OK, that doesn't mean I want to buy your cars any more. Just tells me that the company needs to get it's act together.

Not meaning to be rude, RP. Just doesn't seem like a comfort to me, as a customer and an enthusiast, to be told that GM has too many divisions to make the car I want.

Survey says..... bing bing bing bing bing.... AGREED! :)

Sounds to me like having all of those divisions is a lot more of a burden than it is a blessing. If Ford and Chrysler only have to worry about a few brands....well, it seems to be working for them, isn't it? Especially as far as me, the guy looking for a fun to drive, nice looking car, is concerned. Just sounds to me like the reason we're being given for GM not competing well is it's so hard/expensive for them to compete with all of the brands they have dragging them down. Seems like the problem is pretty obvious there.

Lets see... GM 2.0... Sounds good to me.

How many of you guys say you are loyal GM owners but own a Ford truck or even a Dodge? Every car/ truck I own & there are 4 cars & 2 trucks have bowties on them.

Wanna play who has more here?

Lets see here...

2004 Avalanche
2000 Jimmy
2000 Sierra
1996 Yukon
1993 Beretta GTZ
1990 Camaro IROC-Z
1987 Camaro IROC-Z
1979 Corvette

Notice the trend in the years... hmmm... wonder why that is.

Gee someone is going to be upset when I say this but I dont care.

If you dont like the ride then get off & never come back

Some of you guys act worse then my two young kids when they dont get their way. Scott has told every one to Wait & see what the future is bringing, I think you are going to like it but no one is willing to wait.

We are tired of "waiting to the future" because we've been dissappointed for so long, we're sick of it. As loyal consumers, we're tired of waiting. GM hasn't offered much of anything in say the past 4-5 years that appeals to anyone buy rental car companies. The Cavalier has needed to die since 2000, the Camaro we knew was coming to and end... You want us to leave because we're sick of waiting? That mentality is really irritating in today's market. GM can't afford such a mentaility. If GM and the others in the BIG 3 had done their jobs, you wouldn't see the hundreds of imports running around! Thats their fault. Not mine. I'm sticking with the dying dog and you're telling me, that its my fault for being upset...

as a customer and an enthusiast, to be told that GM has too many divisions to make the car I want.

People people get it through your dang think heads, The Camaro Died because NO ONE was buying them. plus several other reasons. The car was being made & only being bought by a hand full of people & those people only bought one car in the whole time the current gen was in production (what 9yrs?)

Why would a company cont. to make & sell a product that is not being sold & they are always losing money on it? If Gm kept on that track then they would go belly up. By the sounds of it you guys have no Idea about any type of business.



We are tired of "waiting to the future" because we've been dissappointed for so long, we're sick of it. As loyal consumers, we're tired of waiting. GM hasn't offered much of anything in say the past 4-5 years that appeals to anyone buy rental car companies. The Cavalier has needed to die since 2000, the Camaro we knew was coming to and end... You want us to leave because we're sick of waiting? That mentality is really irritating in today's market. GM can't afford such a mentaility. If GM and the others in the BIG 3 had done their jobs, you wouldn't see the hundreds of imports running around! Thats their fault. Not mine. I'm sticking with the dying dog and you're telling me, that its my fault for being upset...

What you guys cant wait 2 more years or even 3 more years isnt good enough for you? Not only was the 4th gen Camaros not selling but they had safety issues with the car, & the car they were looking at replacing the 4th gen with was not up to safety standards either. So they killed the program & could be looking at another car that will not only comply with Safety standards but make everyone happy.Or do you want to buy a car that is going to not meet those Safety standard & the first time you get in a wreck you or someone love is killed?
As I said you guys sound worse then my two kids & my husband when they dont get their way.






Another question how many of you guys bitching about not having the camaro out there can really afford to by a brand new one if they were currently in production? 2? 5 people in this thread?

Dante93GTZ, you are tired of waiting for the new Camaro to come out right? well where is your 4th gen?

I currently have: (when I said every car/truck I currently own has a bowtie on it I dont mean it was made by GM but it is a Chevy brand)
67 C-10 pick up (step side short box)
82 indy pace car Camaro
87 Iroc-z 5.7l
90 Vette
95 Z/28
99 Silverado.
we just got rid of 2 rigs for my new truck.
96 s-10 pick up
& a 00 Grand prix GTP Daytona pace car

How many of those companys of pocket rockets are own by American companies?

What you guys cant wait 2 more years or even 3 more years isnt good enough for you? Not only was the 4th gen Camaros not selling but they had safety issues with the car, & the car they were looking at replacing the 4th gen with was not up to safety standards either. So they killed the program & could be looking at another car that will not only comply with Safety standards but make everyone happy.Or do you want to buy a car that is going to not meet those Safety standard & the first time you get in a wreck you or someone love is killed?
As I said you guys sound worse then my two kids & my husband when they dont get their way.

Lets get one thing straight here. I, and I'm sure many share my feelings, don't truly CARE if a 5thgen comes out in the near future. That's _NOT_ what we are asking for NOW. For me, I don't care if it takes 10 years to bring back a 5thgen, its not important to me. When it happens, it happens. What IS important is that since the Camaro's demise, lets say 2-3 years now, we've been asking for SOMETHING... and given nothing. Are we just supposed to sit and wait for GM to GIVE us something? No. If we did, then we'd get something like the styling/excitement abortions that are offered to us currently by the good General. We as consumers HAVE to be voiced in our fight to get what we want. We've sat quiet for too long and we want/need to be heard.

GM needs to care about the enthousiasts, because the enthousiasts still buy the "driver" cars for spouses, kids, family and recommend them to friends. I'm sorry, but aside from the trucks, GM (CHEVY) has NOTHING to offer anyone. Even though I love GM, I don't consider them the most dependable things on the road. They aren't the best on the road. They are just something I connect with. I can't say that these days.

If we don't speak up and get GM moving, who will?

Then what do you want?
a new Sporty car? Thats the GTO,Cobolt, G6
a wagon type car? Thats the Maxx
econo car? thats the Aveo
Sports truck? SSR & SS
SUV? Trailblazer
Truck? Silverado
Sports car? Vette
Sporty Sudan? Grand prix, Montie,

Should I go on?

Comeon come out & tell me what you want? Gm is currently making almost every car/truck/suv out there to make everyone happy. The only car they are not currently making is the Camaro.

Then what do you want?
a new pony car? Thats the GTO,Cobolt, G6


Pony cars are not FWD. ;)

a wagon type car? Thats the Maxx

Lets see something like the new Mazda hatch.

econo car? thats the Aveo

I hear the Civic is an econo box too. Hell, Kia makes a better car than the Aveo.

Sports truck? SSR, Extrem & SS
SUV? Trailblazer
Truck? Silverado

Agreed. Their trucks are great.

Sports car? Vette

$50,000 is not affordable for a large percentage.

Sporty Sudan? Grand prix, Montie,
Doesn't cut it.

GM is doing an alright job at throwing an entry into most markets. Now they have to work on making those offers attractive to buyers.

Pony cars are not FWD. ;)



Lets see something like the new Mazda hatch.



Hell, Kia makes a better car than the Aveo.

Doesn't cut it.
Mazda which is own by FORD

Kia which is owned in a joint ventrure with Chrysler.

So if Gm hung its self with a new rope you wouldnt be happy? Heck if GM hung its self with an old rope you wouldnt be happy.

stirred the pot some more, didn't I?

OK.....what exactly do any of you propose we do with the Divisions we have?

Drop a few? Remember the outcry when Oldsmobile was dropped? No one at GM was happy that Oldsmobile was dropped....but business is business. When you are losing a staggering amount of money within a division, you take action.

That said, it isn't as easy as saying "Welp...OK, we're done...we're closing down Brand X........" For one thing, what do you do with the dealers with whom you have contracts? What do you do with those facilities that the dealers, in many cases, have leased? What do you do with the people who designed and built the cars? There are about 80 additional questions I should be asking you in order for you to understand the magnitude....but the bottom line is your hair would fall out if I told you how much it would cost to completely eliminate a division. Seriously.

Look...all I'm saying is that this forum has suddenly seemed to become "beat the hell outta GM verbally...." And there are a lot of good points brought up. On the other hand, there are many points that are simply untrue, not thought out, or just plain misguided.

Is GM perfect? No,

I know we're going to lose a lot of people between now and two-three-four years from now....that's the nature of the business. Does that make me happy? For those who know me or anyone at GM, you know the answer. It upsets us very very much.

As I said.....perhaps a few of us can talk in Bowling Green....or at Carlisle....or at the gathering.

This has become a very very complicated business in the new world order. Let me also say this: The company that gets their products right will stay in business. Those that don't won't be here in a few years.

It does frighten me at what is at stake in business today. We all read about the "legacy carriers" within the airline business.......that can be applied to just about any business today from hardware to appliances to cars to what-have-you.

Scott you have Email.

LOL you need to start cleaning out your PM box in here more offten.

GM is the only company offering products that are attractive.