Limits of stock block

just curious if anyone has met the power limits of the stock LTx blocks? I "thought" baxter had a stock block, but I could definitely be wrong.

Fred, if this isn't advanced, move it

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94 Formula M6 w/ 98+ front clip, P&P heads, CC 306, RK Sport Headers, 1.6 RR's, CSI pump, LT4 starter, 1.5 drop springs, custom SFC's, Fittipaldi 18's
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Baxter was running a stock block.
Limits are said to be 1200ish i have yet to find out some more info on this though.

Steven

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thanks steven. should be plenty stong for my plans

George was running a 4-bolt (stock straight, not splayed) LT1 block, and in it's final incarnation, the engine made 1,125 crankHP. The block was never filled. At that point, it was a 383, custom Canfield heads, solid roller cam, Jesel shaft rockers, "unknown" Vortech blower running less than 20#, custom air/water intercooler, MoteC M48Pro with IEX 8-channel ignition, Hooker LT's. He is no longer using the block.

I think he might have his new setup done in time for the last two Edelbrock/PRO events.

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Fred
94 Formula A3: 381/TH400/N2O

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11.513@115.59 on motor; 11.162@127.67, 1.643 60' on a 125-shot. Going with a 275-shot this year

Baxter was NOT running splayed mains??? If he didn't need them at 1100+, why would ANYONE need them? seems like a waste, doesn't it?


BTW, did he ever sell his old 383? I thought some time ago, he was trying to.

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94 Formula M6 w/ 98+ front clip, P&P heads, CC 306, RK Sport Headers, 1.6 RR's, CSI pump, LT4 starter, 1.5 drop springs, custom SFC's, Fittipaldi 18's
PS... this is what part of the alphabet would look like if the letters "Q" and "R" were eliminated.

Pics of the Formula (http://www.hotrideornot.com/cgi-bin/showride.cgi?sid=792)

He sold the complete engine about 3 months ago, less the S/C and MoTeC neither of which were ever for sale. The engine parts are being used in a buildup by another one of our other Central Jersey Camaro/Firebird Owners members, but I think that individual will use his own block.

Yes, it was a GM 4-bolt LT1 block, not a splayed conversion. It was used for almost 4 years. Maybe the General knows what he is doing.... http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

Fred

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Injuneer 94FormM6:
Maybe the General knows what he is doing.... http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif</font>


I would say so! If i ever build a motor, 4 bolt non splayed is the way i'm going. Staying non splayed should save me 500, right?

what does "block was never filled" mean

I have heard of block filler and seen it for sale in the Summit catalogs but really have no idea what it does. I know that it has something to do with hi HP applications, and has something to do with water jackets.

could someone enlighten me

Baxter and I have had this discussion many times before and Yes he had a true 4 bolt block. I ran a two bolt converted to splayed caps. I filled the block to the center of the freeze plugs because we thought we broke the old block. Actually the block broke when we hit the wall in Shreveport and didnt know it. The stock LT1 block will hold around 1200. It doesnt like you missing on your tuneup though. Baxter and I have both switched to DART blocks because we are trying to keep up with the Jones.

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Was he (Baxter) using the factory standard 4-bolt main bearing caps or did he have aftermarket non-splayed 4-bolt caps?

Thanks.

[This message has been edited by Turbo6 (edited July 14, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jesse_Boyer:
Staying non splayed should save me 500, right?</font>

If you start off with a non-splayed 4-bolt block, then "yes". The local machine shop charges $325 + the cost of caps for converting over a 2-bolt block, regardless if you want splayed or straight outer bolts.


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1996 Impala SS - LT4 396, T56
1996 GMC K2500
1992 Buick Roadmaster Estate Wagon

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by madman69:
Actually the block broke when we hit the wall in Shreveport and didnt know it.
</font>

Damn... you hit the wall and didnt know it?

Just kiddn.

BTW, those used Hooker long tubes you sold me a few months ago have worked out great.



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If I'm playin, I'm sprayin

93 Z28 A3 - w/ Jet Hot coated Hooker LT's and true 3" duals
(hiflow cats, cutouts, and Car Chemistry insert mufflers)

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Eric Bryant:
If you start off with a non-splayed 4-bolt block, then "yes". The local machine shop charges $325 + the cost of caps for converting over a 2-bolt block, regardless if you want splayed or straight outer bolts.

But included in the price of the splayed cap conversion is an alighn hone. Which you still need with standard 4 bolt caps

Ed

</font>



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95 Formula Solid Roller 9 Inch 4.10 H.D. Locker,6 speed
Best 1/4 12.074 Best MPH 115.56 on STOCK HEADS


94 Hardtop Heads up Drag car


94 Formula A4 Stock
120,000 miles 13.82

Tow Rig 84 suburban 3/4 4wheel drive 388 small block

So what is the limits of a Factory 2 bolt main?? I can't decide wether to do the splayed conversion or not? Big money differene about $600 bucks labor and all. Could a 2 bolt block live at 6500 and 650 hp?
Matt Mc

Anybody

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by white97T/A:
what does "block was never filled" mean

I have heard of block filler and seen it for sale in the Summit catalogs but really have no idea what it does. I know that it has something to do with hi HP applications, and has something to do with water jackets.

could someone enlighten me</font>

Block filler is a hardener that is added to the block. You pour it in the water passages right up to the water jackets, and it will harden. It increases the strength of the bottom half of the cylinders (where the most stress is). It's really for race cars, since some people have overheating problems after it's done on street cars, but there are pleanty of street cars that run it fine.


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1996 WS6 TA
1968 GTO

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Matt Mc:
So what is the limits of a Factory 2 bolt main?? I can't decide wether to do the splayed conversion or not? Big money differene about $600 bucks labor and all. Could a 2 bolt block live at 6500 and 650 hp?
Matt Mc</font>

ARP claims that a stock 2-bolt block will live (reliably for approx 70k+ miles) with stock caps and bolts producing 375 hp and a max rpm of 6000 rpm. With the addition of ARP main studs, those numbers are boosted to 450 hp and 6500 rpm respectively. Of course, your stock engine can put out 600 hp but may not last 40,000 miles depending on how you run it. These ARP numbers are approx from my memory.

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1987 Trans Am GTA WS6
5.7L SuperRam
4L60-E Trans
3.73 SRD

1987 Pontiac Fiero
3800 Series II SFI
4T60-E Trans
3.33 Final Drive

1987 Chevy S-10 Ext. Cab
4.3L Vortec TBI
4L60-E Trans
3.42 Final Drive

1966 Plymouth Belvedere II
318 Semi-Hemi 2bbl
Torqueflite 727 Trans

http://dtcc.cz28.com

A local engine builder was putting together an LT1 for a Caprice in Kuwait. He had it on an engine dyno, and when he hit around 600hp, the block cracked in the lifter valley and flooded the crank and bearings with water, screwing up the crank surfaces.

It was a Callies forging, and after it was reground, I bought it for 250 bucks http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

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SSMOKEM

1995 Impala SS "Cherry Bomb"
Best ETs: faster than my '65 pickup
Mods: 93% stock

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[This message has been edited by George Debski (edited July 28, 2002).]

Originally posted by Turbo6
Was he (Baxter) using the factory standard 4-bolt main bearing caps or did he have aftermarket non-splayed 4-bolt caps?

Thanks.

Me thinks he had to run either aftermarket straight caps or at least GM 2482 caps opposed to the POS 3412 caps that came with factory 4-bolt LT1 blocks.

Can you please clarify, Fred:D?

Originally posted by Jim S. '95 Z28
Me thinks he had to run either aftermarket straight caps or at least GM 2482 caps opposed to the POS 3412 caps that came with factory 4-bolt LT1 blocks.

Can you please clarify, Fred:D?

Jim:

Unfortunately, I don't know "everything"..... (I just pretend I do....:D )

Originally posted by Injuneer
Jim:

Unfortunately, I don't know "everything"..... (I just pretend I do....:D )

That makes you a much better pretender than I. LOL:D

Local car making 650 - 700 hp on the stock 2 bolt main block, had all the ARP fasteners. After 3 months he popped a piston, unrelated matter, when they tore down the engine there was evidence of metal transfer on the main cap surfaces.

They were moving around down there, also the main bearings were worn in a squirrely kind of way, suggestive of the crankshaft worming around in the journals. ... :eek:

So ... bad things are happening at 650 hp, maybe 550 is near the max for 2 bolt mains.

Hope this helps

LWM

can anyone site an example of an LT1 block breaking from shear power (as opposed to bad tuning)? what are the 1200hp limit-estimates based on? i plan to keep pushing on mine unless i hear a good reason not to... i've got callies billet splayed caps so that should buy me some extra insurance...

Jeff, what are you making for hp? any dyno graphs?

no scanned graphs... with the auto tranny and 4000 stall it makes right at 700rwhp... with the 6-speed it would be probably 850rwhp... when i swapped from the T56 to the TH400 i lost 144rwhp (i've been told that high stall converter mess with dyno readings pretty badly)... also, that was at a lower boost level and with no nitrous... anyway, its all a bunch of number games and guesses, but i'd have to say the motor is putting about 950hp to the flywheel... but what concerns me is that a blower setup like this is supposed to consume about 150hp... so that would mean that as far as cylinder pressures and strain on the block i'm basically at the 1100hp mark... and now i'm looking to add another 125-150hp in nitrous... so there you go, right past the "magic" 1200hp mark...

Just to clarify, both engines that were "judged" to be approaching the "perceived" mechanical limits of the block were blower engines... George had a Vortech on his engine, and yes, they figured it was pulling 200HP off the snout of the crank, in addition to the 1,125HP at the flywheel measured on an engine dyno. I think he may have bumped fwHP up a little more after that. Brian/Madman's engine used an ATI S/C. Both George and Madman broke the billet hub on their ATI Super Damper with the blower pulley load.

I think in George's case, the "perception" that the engine was on the edge of its mechanical limits was based on measuring the block and comparing it to a Bowtie block before deciding to exceed 1,000HP at the crank, and then on the ultimate examination of the block after the engine was "decomissioned" and torn down.

well, in that respect, i figure that adding the extra power through nitrous is an advantage for me in that i will get most of the power to the flywheel... vs. the blower situation where adding another 100hp of boost may add 150hp worth of strain... i'm still running an 8-rib serpentine belt for the blower so i wouldn't think that i'm putting *that* much stress on the crank... the belt should slip before that happens i'm guessing/hoping...

Well, while we're on the subject of block strengths:

If the iron LT1s max is 1200ish, what would(or is) the max of the LS1(being a softer aluminum)? I'm looking to build a monster in the future and have wondered this; especially since some people tell me that the LT1 will NEVER be as fast as the LS1. :rolleyes:
Here's why I want to know-
I had one dude tell me that if you were to do a "complete build-up" of an LT1 and an LS1(to make the most hp possible), the LS1 would ALWAYS make A LOT more power. I called BS in his face on the grounds that an aluminum block would fail before an iron one; other than that, its all a matter of money as to who would be faster. Please tell me I was right.

i don't think its as simple as aluminum vs. iron... i'm sure the Dart Aluminum block is stronger than the LT1 iron block... as far as the clear superiority of the LS1's... well, you'd kinda hope so... otherwise GM is incompetent... obviously when one performance platform replaces another you'd hope its because it performs better... that being said, i think some of us LT1 guys are holding our own against the almighty LS1...

Jeff, do you have any pics of the Spearco you're using? I'd like to see the monster that will flow enough for that amount of hp.

and holy buckets, i just saw you're from omaha. I'll be down over xmax break working for the Corps of Engineers. I worked there last summer and will be again this summer. Let me know if you want to meet up sometime. Could be fun.

Jesse

sure, that would be cool.. email me when you'll be here...

http://www.inductionindustries.com/pix/396/P0002732.JPG
http://www.inductionindustries.com/pix/396/P0002733.JPG
http://www.inductionindustries.com/pix/396/P0002746.JPG

Jeff, do you have msn messenger? If you do, you can add Jesselukeboyer@hotmail.com to you list.

Just to add some fuel to the questioning:

Has anyone ever tried/considered cryrogenically treating the block (the process where they freeze then heat up the block a few times to remove impurities and strengthen the metal). I read about it a few years ago, but never have seen it in use.

Also, with so many big dog's going over to aftermarket Gen-I blocks.....have ANY of them tried to use any pull they may have to get one of these companies, be it Dart, World Products, etc. to make an aftermarket LT1 block. IMO, there is definately a demand for these. Imagine being able to buy a block that requires no machining for 4-bolt splayed mains, or any clearancing for stroker cranks.

The cost of the aftermarket block could be mostly offset by the lack of machining costs and no core charge on the stock block. This alone could, IMO, get a lot of people just doing your average buildups to go with an aftermarket block. For folks like George and Maddman, this option would have probably saved them a fortune over converting to Gen-I blocks.

I mean, what are these aftermarket block makers doing now. Regular SBC/BBC, SBF/BBF, etc. have been done time and time again. I don't think these companies really need to design ANOTHER block based on these motors; it has been done. Perhaps time to offer a new block. I know that when it comes time for me to build-up the bottom end, I'd HIGHLY consider an aftermarket block, even if I wouldn't "need" it and the cost was slightly more, simply for the extra strength and "cool" factor of it.

Hell, if a company did offer this, why not an aftermarket aluminum LT1 block as well?? :D Hmmm, that would really open some eyes then. :)

Just a few thoughts on the discussion - Power potential on Gen1 vs LT1 Vs LS1... The reason LS1's make such great power is due to amazing flowing heads from the factory. If you build a Gen1 with SB2 heads or lessor 15/18 degree race heads, it should out perform a modified LS1. Stock vs stock, the LS1's are much more optimized, so that's no question. Modified, you'll change out all the bottlenecks on Gen1's, and you've got more of a choice for different parts, compared to the relatively small selection for LS1's right now.

Aftermarket LT1 - There aren't really that many differences between the LT1 and Gen 1 blocks. If you're going after so much power that you're breaking LT1 blocks, you're already running an aftermarket efi system, so no need for Optispark. After that, a gen 1 block with the regular flow cooling will bolt right in, so I don't really see an advantage for Dart/World Products/Etc. to make an aftermarket LT1 block. The demand would be much less than current Gen1 blocks (i.e. just guys with original LT1 cars from '92 to '97), and I'm sure would be priced much higher (look at how much more aftermarket LT1 heads are). IMHO, get rid of optispark and run the Gen1. I would like a 1 piece rear mainseal on the Dart's, though...

Andris, building the Dart Little M twin turbo Gen1 block right now...

Originally posted by Z28tt
Aftermarket LT1 - There aren't really that many differences between the LT1 and Gen 1 blocks. If you're going after so much power that you're breaking LT1 blocks, you're already running an aftermarket efi system, so no need for Optispark. After that, a gen 1 block with the regular flow cooling will bolt right in, so I don't really see an advantage for Dart/World Products/Etc. to make an aftermarket LT1 block. The demand would be much less than current Gen1 blocks (i.e. just guys with original LT1 cars from '92 to '97), and I'm sure would be priced much higher (look at how much more aftermarket LT1 heads are). IMHO, get rid of optispark and run the Gen1. I would like a 1 piece rear mainseal on the Dart's, though...

I have to disagree.

Let's say for folks like George and Madman, who already had lots of money dumped into their heads/intake, they basically have to sell it off and go with something else to work with the Gen I block.

I don't see any reason why an LT1 aftermarket block would cost more than an equal Gen-1 block, other than price gouging. Think about it, if they offered a budget-style aftermarket block (such as the Motown block), that could be a great option for a lot of people just doing basic stroker motors, who don't want to deal with machine shops. Just buy the block and put her together, and you get a beefier block in the process.

For someone like me, I know for my first build at least, I wouldn't really be testing the limits of the LT1 (most likely just a 396 and direct port nitrous). But an aluminum LT1 block would sure catch my attention; 100+ lbs of weight savings off the front of the car isn't something to just snicker at. People building cars for roadracing would buy this in a hearbeat.

Or for the big dogs, just a block that would allow them to run that extra nitrous or more boost without having to go with a totally new heads/intake...then most likely different cam setup as well.

Demand is always questionable; but with all of the 92-96 Vettes, 93-97 F-bodies, and the Impala SS/Caprice crowd, along with the number of folks who put LT1's into other vehicles, I think there is a broad enough base for this kind of product.

But that's just my opinion. I personally see a market for it, that's all.

Originally posted by JeffB_94Z
i don't think its as simple as aluminum vs. iron... i'm sure the Dart Aluminum block is stronger than the LT1 iron block... as far as the clear superiority of the LS1's... well, you'd kinda hope so... otherwise GM is incompetent... obviously when one performance platform replaces another you'd hope its because it performs better... that being said, i think some of us LT1 guys are holding our own against the almighty LS1...

Yes, but I want to know what is the limit of the production LS1 block, not aftermarket.

As far as head flow is concerned, that doesn't bother me one bit-- a properly set up turbo system will give you all the flow you'll ever need. Ask me how I know :D . Kenny D already has a V6 buick running high 6s at over 200mph in the quarter---a true testament that boost is replacement for displacement(especially since the Stage II is 10+ year old technology). So all I'm looking for is pure strength in the block.

i'm pretty sure Kenny D isn't using factory heads on his 6 second cars... i know a guy that makes around 1650hp with a single turbo SBF... he lost 200hp when he changed heads... he had a sponsor that wanted him to try their top of the line heads and even though they were an expensive ported set that flowed well on the bench, they resulted in a huge loss of power... besides, the intake side isn't usually the problem... boost takes care of that... the problem is getting all the exhaust out... by design the exhaust port flows less than the intake anyway, but then when the intake is force fed and the exhaust isn't (its actually restricted by the turbo) the problem gets worse...

Andris: I wish having aftermarket EFI meant no more optispark... unfortunately we are heavily tied to the optispark even with a system like the FAST... the alternative is to convert to a coil per plug w/crank and cam triggering... you're looking at around $1500 for this conversion... and after all of that you lose the ability to have two-steps and rev limiters (at least with the FAST)... so its a crappy move either way...

but getting back to the block issue, my whole thing is that the so-called limits of the factory block seem to be based on theory more than anything... with a factory 5.0 block you can say, they will definitely break at Xhp because many people have pushed them to the limit and had them break... in the case of the LT1 its like as soon as people get close to the suspected limit, they switch to something else... nobody that i can see has actually pushed it to the point where it broke from sheer power... the tune was correct, the parts were all top notch, and it still broke...

Originally posted by Joe Brodman


I don't see any reason why an LT1 aftermarket block would cost more than an equal Gen-1 block, other than price gouging.

supply and demand buddy, supply and demand

Also, you can convert a normal small block chevy to reverse cooling if you really want too.....so if you have a bad ass set of LT1 heads and dont want to get rid of them, you dont have to. I dont know how its done, but i know it is possible

For the pricing, you need to recoup your R&D costs. If it costs you $200k to bring the LT1 aftermarket block to market, you sell 500/yr, and want to atleast break even at the end of a year, you'll need to charge atleast $400 extra per block. It's similar when folks complain that CNC port jobs that take 4 hours (guessing here) cost $2k. The machine doesn't cost $500/hr, but you do have to pay for the development, CNC programming, tooling, etc. Each set might only cost $200 outright, but all the rest of the hundreds of hours of work has to be paid by us nutjobs that aren't happy with a mere 500 hp ;) Now if you took a laser CMM, and copied a port, then that's a different story...

A.

Jeff, buddy, you're missing the point.....I'm not worried about "factory" parts other than the block. If money serves me right, I'm probably gonna use some converted 18* or even 15* heads (still researching this).

BTW, if my memory serves me right Kenny was using some heavily worked Stage II heads(Buick Iron) on his car. But I don't care, you won't find me anywhere near the wheel of 1600 hp :eek: :eek:

So no one has busted an LS1 yet to see how far it goes? I hear of A LOT of LS1 guys going to LQ4 blocks cause of it being iron. Shoot, that sounds like a good idea- I might build an LQ4 instead (if the costs of building one of those suckers comes down) :D :cool:

Heres my point of view:

My personal setup would take virtually NOTHING to swap to a Gen1 SBC. Basically the only LT1 stuff left here is the block itself and the water pump. No optisparks, or eDist boxes here. My setup isn't for everyone, but something comparable could be done within more stock type engine needs.

The feasibility of an aftermarket LT1 block? It'll never happen. 2 Bolt mains will suffice for most. 4 Bolts don't cost that much. The guys that need the better block are in such a minority its not worth the effort. Just far too small of a niche market that will do nothing but get smaller at this point.

Keeping in mind the LS1 based engines (any block variant) will probably never be that great of an avenue, given its poor Head Fastener pattern.

Good luck!

Kurtis

i never heard anything about the head fastener thing, care to elaborate? I guess I will be using an LT1 block for sure.

I'm the same way KT, planning on using some yet-unknown heads and have Hogan custom make me an intake with a plenum setup to match (to help distribute boosted air better, like the one on my GN). Then from there find an ignition and such to compliment it. Big $$$

Kurtis, what type of ignition setup do you run that isn't optispark or edist based... did you machine the intake for a normal distributor?

Jeff,

My first plan was to machine my old LT4 setup for a Small Diameter MSD distributor w/ Built-In Cam Sync Sensor.

However This PITA along with a couple other motives led me to just do a Single Plane Conversion (www.LT4-396.com/Intake/Engine1.jpg).

Electronics consist of Sequential FAST EFI, MSD Crank Trigger, MSD Sync Distributor, and MSD Digital 7+.

Note Chris Sikora (Z9s) is using the same size distributor behind his LT1 Intake. I believe he is still using the Opti for some sort of reference though......

Good luck!

Originally posted by Fast Caddie
i never heard anything about the head fastener thing, care to elaborate? I guess I will be using an LT1 block for sure.


I'm not an engine builder nor an LS1 expert, but The problem lies in that the head bolt pattern is only in 4 places around the cylinder, instead of a GenI or GenII's conventional. This leads to less clamping force around the gasket which causes headgasket failures more easily. This will come into play in heavily Boosted or Sprayed Engines.

Kurtis

Originally posted by KTamez

MSD Crank Trigger, MSD Sync Distributor,


Just a FYI.....those MSD dual sync distributors have had their the polarity reversed in quite a few of them including Doug Hegge's tt vette. If i ever go this route i'm using the Accel one

Hmm, Thanx for the headsup........ It is still in the box brand new...... I'm sure after spending as much as I have with Summit over the years they won't mind a return..... :cool:


Just not that big of an Accell fan, though I've never had problems with them like I have with Mallory. LOL.

Hmm.......

-K

Ya, the cool thing about the accel dual sync unit is the color LED lights for each signal

Jack @ Racetronix had some problems with the MSD units and it ended up being the same issue when Doug Hegge was tryn' to get his car tuned.

here are a few links for ya:

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56922&highlight=Accel

http://www.mrgasket.com/dfiprod.html

Ktamez, please tell me you are going to push that engine to its limits when you get to the track. Seems like no one is even trying to compete with the ls1 guys that are going all out on their motors.

Originally posted by Kreinmc
Ktamez, please tell me you are going to push that engine to its limits when you get to the track. Seems like no one is even trying to compete with the ls1 guys that are going all out on their motors.

Keep you ear to the ground next spring/summer. ;)

Kurtis

That's fine that the factory 4 bolt block held up but unless you already have one of the 4bolt blocks converting any 2 bolt block to 4 bolt mains is going to cost the same whether you get straight or splayed mains. And unless you run into a deal anyone with a 4 bolt main block is probably going to want at least $500 so you really haven't saved any money have you?
This is no flame job just stating the facts.