Limits of stock block
Thread Starter
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 507
From: Sioux Falls, SD
and holy buckets, i just saw you're from omaha. I'll be down over xmax break working for the Corps of Engineers. I worked there last summer and will be again this summer. Let me know if you want to meet up sometime. Could be fun.
Jesse
Jesse
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Joined: May 1999
Posts: 61
From: omaha, NE
sure, that would be cool.. email me when you'll be here...
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Thread Starter
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 507
From: Sioux Falls, SD
Jeff, do you have msn messenger? If you do, you can add Jesselukeboyer@hotmail.com to you list.
GP Moderator
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 645
From: Columbus, Ohio
Just to add some fuel to the questioning:
Has anyone ever tried/considered cryrogenically treating the block (the process where they freeze then heat up the block a few times to remove impurities and strengthen the metal). I read about it a few years ago, but never have seen it in use.
Also, with so many big dog's going over to aftermarket Gen-I blocks.....have ANY of them tried to use any pull they may have to get one of these companies, be it Dart, World Products, etc. to make an aftermarket LT1 block. IMO, there is definately a demand for these. Imagine being able to buy a block that requires no machining for 4-bolt splayed mains, or any clearancing for stroker cranks.
The cost of the aftermarket block could be mostly offset by the lack of machining costs and no core charge on the stock block. This alone could, IMO, get a lot of people just doing your average buildups to go with an aftermarket block. For folks like George and Maddman, this option would have probably saved them a fortune over converting to Gen-I blocks.
I mean, what are these aftermarket block makers doing now. Regular SBC/BBC, SBF/BBF, etc. have been done time and time again. I don't think these companies really need to design ANOTHER block based on these motors; it has been done. Perhaps time to offer a new block. I know that when it comes time for me to build-up the bottom end, I'd HIGHLY consider an aftermarket block, even if I wouldn't "need" it and the cost was slightly more, simply for the extra strength and "cool" factor of it.
Hell, if a company did offer this, why not an aftermarket aluminum LT1 block as well??
Hmmm, that would really open some eyes then. 
Has anyone ever tried/considered cryrogenically treating the block (the process where they freeze then heat up the block a few times to remove impurities and strengthen the metal). I read about it a few years ago, but never have seen it in use.
Also, with so many big dog's going over to aftermarket Gen-I blocks.....have ANY of them tried to use any pull they may have to get one of these companies, be it Dart, World Products, etc. to make an aftermarket LT1 block. IMO, there is definately a demand for these. Imagine being able to buy a block that requires no machining for 4-bolt splayed mains, or any clearancing for stroker cranks.
The cost of the aftermarket block could be mostly offset by the lack of machining costs and no core charge on the stock block. This alone could, IMO, get a lot of people just doing your average buildups to go with an aftermarket block. For folks like George and Maddman, this option would have probably saved them a fortune over converting to Gen-I blocks.
I mean, what are these aftermarket block makers doing now. Regular SBC/BBC, SBF/BBF, etc. have been done time and time again. I don't think these companies really need to design ANOTHER block based on these motors; it has been done. Perhaps time to offer a new block. I know that when it comes time for me to build-up the bottom end, I'd HIGHLY consider an aftermarket block, even if I wouldn't "need" it and the cost was slightly more, simply for the extra strength and "cool" factor of it.
Hell, if a company did offer this, why not an aftermarket aluminum LT1 block as well??
Hmmm, that would really open some eyes then.
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Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 100
From: W Hartford, CT
Just a few thoughts on the discussion - Power potential on Gen1 vs LT1 Vs LS1... The reason LS1's make such great power is due to amazing flowing heads from the factory. If you build a Gen1 with SB2 heads or lessor 15/18 degree race heads, it should out perform a modified LS1. Stock vs stock, the LS1's are much more optimized, so that's no question. Modified, you'll change out all the bottlenecks on Gen1's, and you've got more of a choice for different parts, compared to the relatively small selection for LS1's right now.
Aftermarket LT1 - There aren't really that many differences between the LT1 and Gen 1 blocks. If you're going after so much power that you're breaking LT1 blocks, you're already running an aftermarket efi system, so no need for Optispark. After that, a gen 1 block with the regular flow cooling will bolt right in, so I don't really see an advantage for Dart/World Products/Etc. to make an aftermarket LT1 block. The demand would be much less than current Gen1 blocks (i.e. just guys with original LT1 cars from '92 to '97), and I'm sure would be priced much higher (look at how much more aftermarket LT1 heads are). IMHO, get rid of optispark and run the Gen1. I would like a 1 piece rear mainseal on the Dart's, though...
Andris, building the Dart Little M twin turbo Gen1 block right now...
Aftermarket LT1 - There aren't really that many differences between the LT1 and Gen 1 blocks. If you're going after so much power that you're breaking LT1 blocks, you're already running an aftermarket efi system, so no need for Optispark. After that, a gen 1 block with the regular flow cooling will bolt right in, so I don't really see an advantage for Dart/World Products/Etc. to make an aftermarket LT1 block. The demand would be much less than current Gen1 blocks (i.e. just guys with original LT1 cars from '92 to '97), and I'm sure would be priced much higher (look at how much more aftermarket LT1 heads are). IMHO, get rid of optispark and run the Gen1. I would like a 1 piece rear mainseal on the Dart's, though...
Andris, building the Dart Little M twin turbo Gen1 block right now...
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Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 645
From: Columbus, Ohio
Originally posted by Z28tt
Aftermarket LT1 - There aren't really that many differences between the LT1 and Gen 1 blocks. If you're going after so much power that you're breaking LT1 blocks, you're already running an aftermarket efi system, so no need for Optispark. After that, a gen 1 block with the regular flow cooling will bolt right in, so I don't really see an advantage for Dart/World Products/Etc. to make an aftermarket LT1 block. The demand would be much less than current Gen1 blocks (i.e. just guys with original LT1 cars from '92 to '97), and I'm sure would be priced much higher (look at how much more aftermarket LT1 heads are). IMHO, get rid of optispark and run the Gen1. I would like a 1 piece rear mainseal on the Dart's, though...
Aftermarket LT1 - There aren't really that many differences between the LT1 and Gen 1 blocks. If you're going after so much power that you're breaking LT1 blocks, you're already running an aftermarket efi system, so no need for Optispark. After that, a gen 1 block with the regular flow cooling will bolt right in, so I don't really see an advantage for Dart/World Products/Etc. to make an aftermarket LT1 block. The demand would be much less than current Gen1 blocks (i.e. just guys with original LT1 cars from '92 to '97), and I'm sure would be priced much higher (look at how much more aftermarket LT1 heads are). IMHO, get rid of optispark and run the Gen1. I would like a 1 piece rear mainseal on the Dart's, though...
Let's say for folks like George and Madman, who already had lots of money dumped into their heads/intake, they basically have to sell it off and go with something else to work with the Gen I block.
I don't see any reason why an LT1 aftermarket block would cost more than an equal Gen-1 block, other than price gouging. Think about it, if they offered a budget-style aftermarket block (such as the Motown block), that could be a great option for a lot of people just doing basic stroker motors, who don't want to deal with machine shops. Just buy the block and put her together, and you get a beefier block in the process.
For someone like me, I know for my first build at least, I wouldn't really be testing the limits of the LT1 (most likely just a 396 and direct port nitrous). But an aluminum LT1 block would sure catch my attention; 100+ lbs of weight savings off the front of the car isn't something to just snicker at. People building cars for roadracing would buy this in a hearbeat.
Or for the big dogs, just a block that would allow them to run that extra nitrous or more boost without having to go with a totally new heads/intake...then most likely different cam setup as well.
Demand is always questionable; but with all of the 92-96 Vettes, 93-97 F-bodies, and the Impala SS/Caprice crowd, along with the number of folks who put LT1's into other vehicles, I think there is a broad enough base for this kind of product.
But that's just my opinion. I personally see a market for it, that's all.
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 908
Originally posted by JeffB_94Z
i don't think its as simple as aluminum vs. iron... i'm sure the Dart Aluminum block is stronger than the LT1 iron block... as far as the clear superiority of the LS1's... well, you'd kinda hope so... otherwise GM is incompetent... obviously when one performance platform replaces another you'd hope its because it performs better... that being said, i think some of us LT1 guys are holding our own against the almighty LS1...
i don't think its as simple as aluminum vs. iron... i'm sure the Dart Aluminum block is stronger than the LT1 iron block... as far as the clear superiority of the LS1's... well, you'd kinda hope so... otherwise GM is incompetent... obviously when one performance platform replaces another you'd hope its because it performs better... that being said, i think some of us LT1 guys are holding our own against the almighty LS1...
As far as head flow is concerned, that doesn't bother me one bit-- a properly set up turbo system will give you all the flow you'll ever need. Ask me how I know
. Kenny D already has a V6 buick running high 6s at over 200mph in the quarter---a true testament that boost is replacement for displacement(especially since the Stage II is 10+ year old technology). So all I'm looking for is pure strength in the block.
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Joined: May 1999
Posts: 61
From: omaha, NE
i'm pretty sure Kenny D isn't using factory heads on his 6 second cars... i know a guy that makes around 1650hp with a single turbo SBF... he lost 200hp when he changed heads... he had a sponsor that wanted him to try their top of the line heads and even though they were an expensive ported set that flowed well on the bench, they resulted in a huge loss of power... besides, the intake side isn't usually the problem... boost takes care of that... the problem is getting all the exhaust out... by design the exhaust port flows less than the intake anyway, but then when the intake is force fed and the exhaust isn't (its actually restricted by the turbo) the problem gets worse...
Andris: I wish having aftermarket EFI meant no more optispark... unfortunately we are heavily tied to the optispark even with a system like the FAST... the alternative is to convert to a coil per plug w/crank and cam triggering... you're looking at around $1500 for this conversion... and after all of that you lose the ability to have two-steps and rev limiters (at least with the FAST)... so its a crappy move either way...
but getting back to the block issue, my whole thing is that the so-called limits of the factory block seem to be based on theory more than anything... with a factory 5.0 block you can say, they will definitely break at Xhp because many people have pushed them to the limit and had them break... in the case of the LT1 its like as soon as people get close to the suspected limit, they switch to something else... nobody that i can see has actually pushed it to the point where it broke from sheer power... the tune was correct, the parts were all top notch, and it still broke...
Andris: I wish having aftermarket EFI meant no more optispark... unfortunately we are heavily tied to the optispark even with a system like the FAST... the alternative is to convert to a coil per plug w/crank and cam triggering... you're looking at around $1500 for this conversion... and after all of that you lose the ability to have two-steps and rev limiters (at least with the FAST)... so its a crappy move either way...
but getting back to the block issue, my whole thing is that the so-called limits of the factory block seem to be based on theory more than anything... with a factory 5.0 block you can say, they will definitely break at Xhp because many people have pushed them to the limit and had them break... in the case of the LT1 its like as soon as people get close to the suspected limit, they switch to something else... nobody that i can see has actually pushed it to the point where it broke from sheer power... the tune was correct, the parts were all top notch, and it still broke...
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 556
From: Chicago, IL
Originally posted by Joe Brodman
I don't see any reason why an LT1 aftermarket block would cost more than an equal Gen-1 block, other than price gouging.
I don't see any reason why an LT1 aftermarket block would cost more than an equal Gen-1 block, other than price gouging.
Also, you can convert a normal small block chevy to reverse cooling if you really want too.....so if you have a bad *** set of LT1 heads and dont want to get rid of them, you dont have to. I dont know how its done, but i know it is possible
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 100
From: W Hartford, CT
For the pricing, you need to recoup your R&D costs. If it costs you $200k to bring the LT1 aftermarket block to market, you sell 500/yr, and want to atleast break even at the end of a year, you'll need to charge atleast $400 extra per block. It's similar when folks complain that CNC port jobs that take 4 hours (guessing here) cost $2k. The machine doesn't cost $500/hr, but you do have to pay for the development, CNC programming, tooling, etc. Each set might only cost $200 outright, but all the rest of the hundreds of hours of work has to be paid by us nutjobs that aren't happy with a mere 500 hp 
Now if you took a laser CMM, and copied a port, then that's a different story...
A.
Now if you took a laser CMM, and copied a port, then that's a different story...A.
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 908
Jeff, buddy, you're missing the point.....I'm not worried about "factory" parts other than the block. If money serves me right, I'm probably gonna use some converted 18* or even 15* heads (still researching this).
BTW, if my memory serves me right Kenny was using some heavily worked Stage II heads(Buick Iron) on his car. But I don't care, you won't find me anywhere near the wheel of 1600 hp
So no one has busted an LS1 yet to see how far it goes? I hear of A LOT of LS1 guys going to LQ4 blocks cause of it being iron. Shoot, that sounds like a good idea- I might build an LQ4 instead (if the costs of building one of those suckers comes down) 
BTW, if my memory serves me right Kenny was using some heavily worked Stage II heads(Buick Iron) on his car. But I don't care, you won't find me anywhere near the wheel of 1600 hp
So no one has busted an LS1 yet to see how far it goes? I hear of A LOT of LS1 guys going to LQ4 blocks cause of it being iron. Shoot, that sounds like a good idea- I might build an LQ4 instead (if the costs of building one of those suckers comes down)
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 555
From: Yakima WA
Heres my point of view:
My personal setup would take virtually NOTHING to swap to a Gen1 SBC. Basically the only LT1 stuff left here is the block itself and the water pump. No optisparks, or eDist boxes here. My setup isn't for everyone, but something comparable could be done within more stock type engine needs.
The feasibility of an aftermarket LT1 block? It'll never happen. 2 Bolt mains will suffice for most. 4 Bolts don't cost that much. The guys that need the better block are in such a minority its not worth the effort. Just far too small of a niche market that will do nothing but get smaller at this point.
Keeping in mind the LS1 based engines (any block variant) will probably never be that great of an avenue, given its poor Head Fastener pattern.
Good luck!
Kurtis
My personal setup would take virtually NOTHING to swap to a Gen1 SBC. Basically the only LT1 stuff left here is the block itself and the water pump. No optisparks, or eDist boxes here. My setup isn't for everyone, but something comparable could be done within more stock type engine needs.
The feasibility of an aftermarket LT1 block? It'll never happen. 2 Bolt mains will suffice for most. 4 Bolts don't cost that much. The guys that need the better block are in such a minority its not worth the effort. Just far too small of a niche market that will do nothing but get smaller at this point.
Keeping in mind the LS1 based engines (any block variant) will probably never be that great of an avenue, given its poor Head Fastener pattern.
Good luck!
Kurtis
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 908
i never heard anything about the head fastener thing, care to elaborate? I guess I will be using an LT1 block for sure.
I'm the same way KT, planning on using some yet-unknown heads and have Hogan custom make me an intake with a plenum setup to match (to help distribute boosted air better, like the one on my GN). Then from there find an ignition and such to compliment it. Big $$$
I'm the same way KT, planning on using some yet-unknown heads and have Hogan custom make me an intake with a plenum setup to match (to help distribute boosted air better, like the one on my GN). Then from there find an ignition and such to compliment it. Big $$$
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 555
From: Yakima WA
Jeff,
My first plan was to machine my old LT4 setup for a Small Diameter MSD distributor w/ Built-In Cam Sync Sensor.
However This PITA along with a couple other motives led me to just do a Single Plane Conversion.
Electronics consist of Sequential FAST EFI, MSD Crank Trigger, MSD Sync Distributor, and MSD Digital 7+.
Note Chris Sikora (Z9s) is using the same size distributor behind his LT1 Intake. I believe he is still using the Opti for some sort of reference though......
Good luck!
My first plan was to machine my old LT4 setup for a Small Diameter MSD distributor w/ Built-In Cam Sync Sensor.
However This PITA along with a couple other motives led me to just do a Single Plane Conversion.
Electronics consist of Sequential FAST EFI, MSD Crank Trigger, MSD Sync Distributor, and MSD Digital 7+.
Note Chris Sikora (Z9s) is using the same size distributor behind his LT1 Intake. I believe he is still using the Opti for some sort of reference though......
Good luck!