I want my 5th Gen Z/28 to compete with these....

....and NOT be last!

Is it asking too much for the 5th gen Z/28 to be benchmarked against the 350Z? I know we got's the HP, but handling, etc..???

Dial-up don't bother

http://auto.joins.com/upboard/pds/pdst/BestMotoring_350Z_TsukubaBattle.asf

I owned a 96 Z28, and now an 03 350Z. They produce similar performance numbers (LT-1 vs 350Z), but living with each on a daily basis is a different story. The quality of my 96 was poor, the interior was not pleasant to look at, or comfortable, squeeks/rattles, ect. These are some issues that need to be solved in the 5th gen in order to compete with the competition.

Originally posted by steves
I owned a 96 Z28, and now an 03 350Z. They produce similar performance numbers (LT-1 vs 350Z), but living with each on a daily basis is a different story. The quality of my 96 was poor, the interior was not pleasant to look at, or comfortable, squeeks/rattles, ect. These are some issues that need to be solved in the 5th gen in order to compete with the competition.

There is absolutely no question that a new Camaro needs to be a modern, well design and well built machine. Interior pieces must fit together well, and fuction properly. (ie. no more power window motors failing every 20,000 miles. no more ill-fitting plastic trim pieces such as the power window/lock bezel.)

The end of the F-Platform is a good thing from this standpoint. It's time to move away from a creaky base structure that is over 20 years old and notorious for providing gobs of flex.

I just want the 5th gen to run with current 03-04 Cobra's.... N/A! The 06 Cobra will be maybe just otta reach.....
Although the C6 should handle that easily...

Originally posted by Doug Harden
....and NOT be last!

Is it asking too much for the 5th gen Z/28 to be benchmarked against the 350Z? I know we got's the HP, but handling, etc..???

Dial-up don't bother

http://auto.joins.com/upboard/pds/pdst/BestMotoring_350Z_TsukubaBattle.asf

HOLY SH!T !!!!!! My heart is racing. That was awesome Doug.

Originally posted by 99SilverSS
I just want the 5th gen to run with current 03-04 Cobra's.... N/A! The 06 Cobra will be maybe just otta reach.....
Although the C6 should handle that easily...

From a hotrodding stand point I welcome the idea of a supercharger (I don't see it happening). A $100 pulley on a GTP is worth at least 20hp and if I'm not mistaken on the Cobra/Lighting a pulley swap is worth even more.

I definately feel that one of the Camaro models, which I won't specify which for fear of arguement, should be a road racer type. It should have a smaller V-8, (302 maybe) and be setup for handling ect. Then there should be the dragstrip monster (not that the other shouldn't be able to handle the GT mustang). Cobras might have to be left for the Corvette, since that is what Ford is trying to make them compete against. You don't want a $37k Camaro.

Originally posted by CamaroRSguy
don't want a $37k Camaro.

I think the next gen will cost at least that much. Look at all the su.... er... I mean people that paid that much for the 4th gens. Fact is that Fords S/C Cobra loaded costs a few thousand less than an SS with all the options, and will whip the sh!t out of an SS in every catagory. So it will definitely cost more than the 4th gen if GM wants the 5th to compete with the Cobra.

Originally posted by steves
I think the next gen will cost at least that much. Look at all the su.... er... I mean people that paid that much for the 4th gens. Fact is that Fords S/C Cobra loaded costs a few thousand less than an SS with all the options, and will whip the sh!t out of an SS in every catagory. So it will definitely cost more than the 4th gen.

How many 4th Gen's do you think ran $37k?

A loaded SS stcikered around $32k... now, you could have tacked on a ton of SLP add-ons, but those are are very very rare, almost never sat on a dealer lot (had to order them), and are very much the exception and not the rule.

I would guess a potential 2007 Camaro to start at $19-$21k for the base, and go up to $35k-ish for a totally loaded top-of-the-line car.

Originally posted by steves
I think the next gen will cost at least that much. Look at all the su.... er... I mean people that paid that much for the 4th gens. Fact is that Fords S/C Cobra loaded costs a few thousand less than an SS with all the options, and will whip the sh!t out of an SS in every catagory. So it will definitely cost more than the 4th gen if GM wants the 5th to compete with the Cobra.


I'm sorry but name one person who payed high 30's for thier SS? I think you are about 10k too high there.

Originally posted by Darth Xed
How many 4th Gen's do you think ran $37k?

A loaded SS stcikered around $32k... now, you could have tacked on a ton of SLP add-ons, but those are are very very rare, almost never sat on a dealer lot (had to order them), and are very much the exception and not the rule.

I would guess a potential 2007 Camaro to start at $19-$21k for the base, and go up to $35k-ish for a totally loaded top-of-the-line car.

A good friend of mine was looking for an SS last year (April) all the ones that he saw were over 35K. I don't think they were that rare. Even the older SS avg'ed over 33k. I've even see a few verts at 40+.

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
I'm sorry but name one person who payed high 30's for thier SS? I think you are about 10k too high there.

A friend of mine ordered an 02 with everything you can possibly get. (even the engine block heater) THe only option he didn't get was one of the suspension packages and it stickered for 38 something. I think the dealer knocked off like 1200 bucks. A stripped Z28 with just the SS appearence package was like 27 something.

Originally posted by steves
A friend of mine ordered an 02 with everything you can possibly get. (even the engine block heater) THe only option he didn't get was one of the suspension packages and it stickered for 38 something. I think the dealer knocked off like 1200 bucks. A stripped Z28 with just the SS appearence package was like 27 something.

I don't know what to say other than you are just wrong.

I base 2002 Z28 stickered around the mid $23k's.

As for the high 30 and low 40 SS's, that could only be done with every SLP add-on like, Center Mount Exhaust and all that, which is very very very very very rare. Most SS's had little or no SLP add-ons, the most common beign the couple hundred dollar SS grille... pushing a factory-loaded SS to around $32,500 or so.

You are just incorrect in your pricing.

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
I'm sorry but name one person who payed high 30's for thier SS? I think you are about 10k too high there.

Right off the top of my head...I can easily think of 3 or 4 that I personally know.

In fact, I can't think of anyone that I know that spent less than low30's for a 2000 and up SS.

Originally posted by Darth Xed
I don't know what to say other than you are just wrong.

I base 2002 Z28 stickered around the mid $23k's.

As for the high 30 and low 40 SS's, that could only be done with every SLP add-on like, Center Mount Exhaust and all that, which is very very very very very rare. Most SS's had little or no SLP add-ons, the most common beign the couple hundred dollar SS grille... pushing a factory-loaded SS to around $32,500 or so.

You are just incorrect in your pricing.

I noticed this for the 2002 model year. When I was looking for a car in 2001 Camaros and Firebirds were significantly less. I went with my friend on one occasion to a dealer before he ordered his car and looked at a couple SS's and I couldn't believe what I saw all the SS's were priced at 35k or more. I remember the 40 thousand + convertable that I saw and my jaw dropped. There still is a new Z28 vert at this dealership in my area and it has all the options on it and the sticker is 34k if I remember correctly. I don't think the 37k SS is rare.

I'm with Doug. I'd love to see a 5th gen Z/28 run and win with this pack. Actually throw in Cobra Mustang and Supra...for more cannon fodder.

you are corect $32,000 to 34,000 but with the dealer mark up of, market value ajustment of $5,000.Some people got the shaft and the car got overpriced. dealers killed the camaro and T/A.

Originally posted by LT4ultraZ
you are corect $32,000 to 34,000 but with the dealer mark up of, market value ajustment of $5,000.Some people got the shaft and the car got overpriced. dealers killed the camaro and T/A.

That was before dealer mark-up.

That was a pretty awesome video...

I guess you can say one thing about the Japanese people, they love their cars and are just as passionate as Americans are.

A $37K Camaro doesn't even begin to make sense. The competition in that segment is fierce, and there is a big gaping hole for a RWD V8 car in the $20-30K range.

Besides, anyone can make an expensive car good. It's a lot more impressive when you beat the snot out of your real competion and cost far less (reference Z06 - comparable to cars costing twice as much).

Most definetly, but by later 06 who knows?? That might be cheap.

"In fact, I can't think of anyone that I know that spent less than low30's for a 2000 and up SS."

2001 M6 SS, every GM option 'cept convertible.

$26,800

Originally posted by PacerX
"In fact, I can't think of anyone that I know that spent less than low30's for a 2000 and up SS."

2001 M6 SS, every GM option 'cept convertible.

$26,800

You didn't get any SLP options?

The end of the F-Platform is a good thing from this standpoint. It's time to move away from a creaky base structure that is over 20 years old and notorious for providing gobs of flex.

I sincerely WISH people would stop repeating this myth. The 4gen structure was RADICALLY DIFFERENT and IMPROVED over that of the 3gen. Allow me to quote the engineers who actually worked on the 4gen design (source: Road & Track Guide to the 1993 Firebird):

(Ted Robertson, director of F-car engineering) The only things on the car that are carry-over are the rear compartment pan and the rear suspension. Everything else is new. Everything. The structure is radically different. All the glass, all the body panels are different. The whole front suspension, the braking system, radically different.

Structural innovations new to the Camaro with the 4gen included RIM composite fascia and fenders and SMC roof, doors and hatch/spoiler.

The results: the 1993 Fbody was 20 % stiffer than the 1992. This included an improvement to 23 Hz bending (vs 18 before) and 20 Hz torsion (vs 16 before).

Originally posted by BigDarknFast
I sincerely WISH people would stop repeating this myth. The 4gen structure was RADICALLY DIFFERENT and IMPROVED over that of the 3gen. Allow me to quote the engineers who actually worked on the 4gen design (source: Road & Track Guide to the 1993 Firebird):



Structural innovations new to the Camaro with the 4gen included RIM composite fascia and fenders and SMC roof, doors and hatch/spoiler.

The results: the 1993 Fbody was 20 % stiffer than the 1992. This included an improvement to 23 Hz bending (vs 18 before) and 20 Hz torsion (vs 16 before).


Fair enough... perhaps I should reword it thusly:

"The end of the F-Platform is a good thing from this standpoint. It's time to move away from a creaky base structure that's basis is over 20 years old and notorious for providing gobs of flex."

Darth - I appreciate your response. However it is still incorrect. If you were ONLY speaking of the rear suspension I would agree with you. But virtually EVERYTHING else key to the 4gen's structure was new. Gads, how can you ignore the completely new rack steering? The all-new front suspension? The composite body panels and the implications in the underlying supporting structure? Sorry, I see no factual basis for your statement, either the original or the revised version.

NOW THATS A ROAD TEST!!

btw, Ive been more and more worried that everyone expecting the 5th gen to maul the Cobra will be disappointed. With GM keeping a nice buffer zone between the vette and f-car, and Ford pushing the Cobra to vette levels of performance, I dont see it happening. The only way the 5th gen is going to be a better performer than the cobra is if the Vette gets a substantial wakeup and beats the crap out of the Cobra in all catagories...

Which I dont think Coletti is going to let happen. I think Ford will continue to chase the vette with its Cobra, and if you want to take one down, youd better not buy a Camaro.

The results: the 1993 Fbody was 20 % stiffer than the 1992. This included an improvement to 23 Hz bending (vs 18 before) and 20 Hz torsion (vs 16 before).

Unfortunately even owners of 4th gens believe their car is a wet noodle. To put F-body rigidity into context: C4: 5 Hz, C5 targa: 22 Hz, C5 hardtop: 24 Hz, CTS/BMW sedans: 26 Hz. But 4th gens are flex boats? The numbers don't lie.

The likely cause of misconceptions. Poor interior build quality and design leads to rattles but is incorrectly attributed to chassis flex. Lack of SFCs from the manufacturing line allows the chassis to degrade over time (at least this happened to my 3rd gens). T-top models do flex more than hardtops (I've never driven a 4th gen hardtop but the difference between my 3rd gens is noticeable for torsional rigidity). Solid rear axle means the chassis absorbs lots of impact that would be pushed aside by a independent rear where the left/right side are decoupled.

I can definitely feel a difference in rigidity between a 4th gen and 3rd gen.

Although the 4th gen is not what I'd consider world class....it feels far more rigid than a 3rd gen.

Sometimes when I jack up my 3rd gen to work on it.....I almost hold my breathe...hoping this isn't going to be the time that the car snaps in half.:eek:

It'll be fine. ;)

We all need SFC's, from the 1st Gen to the 4th Gen, solve it and stop complaining. :)

Unfortunately even owners of 4th gens believe their car is a wet noodle. To put F-body rigidity into context: C4: 5 Hz, C5 targa: 22 Hz, C5 hardtop: 24 Hz, CTS/BMW sedans: 26 Hz. But 4th gens are flex boats? The numbers don't lie.

Speak for yourself. (Are you an owner?). Never in my four years of owning and enjoying a 4gen did I believe that. Both my Firebirds were rock-solid and rattle-free. As for comparing with $42k Vettes and $47k BMW lawyer-mobiles, sure, the expensive cars are stiffer (and in the case of the BMW, about twice the price). So what?

The likely cause of misconceptions. Poor interior build quality and design leads to rattles but is incorrectly attributed to chassis flex. Lack of SFCs from the manufacturing line allows the chassis to degrade over time (at least this happened to my 3rd gens). T-top models do flex more than hardtops (I've never driven a 4th gen hardtop but the difference between my 3rd gens is noticeable for torsional rigidity). Solid rear axle means the chassis absorbs lots of impact that would be pushed aside by a independent rear where the left/right side are decoupled.

Nope. The likely cause of misconceptions: owners driving the car as hard and fast as its phenomenal LS1 V8 can propel it, with no regard for safety or road conditions. Poor interior build quality - my foot. The interior is rock-solid. Often the source of rattles is owners themselves, such as when they open up interior panels to twiddle with stereo components and then never get around to re-installing all the fasteners. One time my 99 Formula developed a bad clunk/rattle in the rear trunk well. I took a look - Shazam! I had failed to cinch down the spare and its jack!

Speak for yourself. (Are you an owner?). Never in my four years of owning and enjoying a 4gen did I believe that. Both my Firebirds were rock-solid and rattle-free. As for comparing with $42k Vettes and $47k BMW lawyer-mobiles, sure, the expensive cars are stiffer (and in the case of the BMW, about twice the price). So what?

I own an '01 WS6 and two '91s (GTA/ T/A). I don't think our car's are wet noodles so I don't know what the f*** you're talking about. I'm referring to all the posters on this thread and others that talk about our chassis's rigidity. It should and could've been better, but it certainly wasn't inferior. Somehow you got out of my post exactly the opposite of what I said, so stick your attitude up where the sun doesn't shine. :rolleyes: If you're going to jump on me at least you can be smart enough to understand what I posted.

The interior is rock-solid.

Every one of my cars has rattles. Lets name them on my 4th gen: center console, right t-top inside the handle, (and I've never removed my t-tops once, I absolutely hate t-tops but had no choice if I wanted a T/A), driver's door. I only have 6K miles on my car and I've haven't played around with any interior components.

I took a look - Shazam! I had failed to cinch down the spare and its jack!

Thanks genius. I'm a much better detective since I've eliminated most of the rattles in both my 3rd gens but its irritating when you develop rattles after only 2K miles on a car that had SFCs installed with 500 miles on the car (referring to my '01).

I'm not trying to create a p**ing match or flame or derail this post but I do get very irritated when someone attacks me for saying something completely the opposite of what I said (and think). :(

dnovotny - Well my apologies. However I've read quite a few opinions in my time and frankly yours was ambiguous. No need to get all in a huff (where do you get this stuff about getting jumped on... believe me you'd know it if I were to stoop to making a personal attack). All I did was ask if you were an owner... pfft. But speaking of setting someone off, you should understand that coming to a Camaro enthusiast's board and speaking for 4gen owners to whit, "even 4gen owners believe their car is a wet noodle" is a statement that's bound to be challenged. And I believe it only helps perpetuate the myth. Plus - I can say "owners believe their car can transport them to Mars"... that's probably true too... there are likely one or two out of the hundreds of thousands of owners who are looney enough (NOT saying you are one of them :rolleyes: ) to believe that too. But seriously - are most 4gen owners ignorant enough to think that a squeak or rattle (often caused by their own malfeasance) is due to poor rigidity? I think not. Instead I would *hope* they have enough knowledge and experience with other cars to know the true signs of poor rigidity when they see them... cowl shake, poor responsiveness in bumpy turns and so on.

Every one of my cars has rattles. Lets name them on my 4th gen: center console, right t-top inside the handle, (and I've never removed my t-tops once, I absolutely hate t-tops but had no choice if I wanted a T/A), driver's door. I only have 6K miles on my car and I've haven't played around with any interior components.

Never did I claim that every single 4gen ever made is rattle-free. I said the interior is solid, meaning it is well-designed and manufactured to be squeak and rattle-free. Too bad you have some noises. Every one of them is easily fixable, but that's another thread. But from MY experience, with nearly 50k miles on brutal potholed Michigan roads, the interior is noise-free on these cars. Except when noises are introduced by the occupants! :D

I'm a much better detective since I've eliminated most of the rattles in both my 3rd gens but its irritating when you develop rattles after only 2K miles on a car that had SFCs installed with 500 miles on the car (referring to my '01).

You should understand (and I'm not saying you don't) that you have changed your car's NVH characteristics by adding the SFC's. They strengthen a key weak point in the structure. But they also change the car from a noise standpoint. The stock, unaltered structure is the one put thru entire equivalent lifetimes by GM engineers and testers, and it was the one optimized for NVH control, road performance, crashworthiness, and minimum weight/cost. I've modified my cars too... and it's a lonely road without warranty support. Hopefully the benefits outweigh the cost. BTW how do you know your aftermarket parts were installed correctly?

There's one other thing that gets me about all this noise commentary. It raises the bar of expectations to weird levels for the 5gen. A lot of Fbody owners get off on this tangent and begin to lose focus on the main mission of the FBody, sporty performance on a budget. The 4gen fbody is an amazing performance value (maybe too amazing? - thinking of the teenagers who wrap them around trees). Part of the equation to keep it affordable included some liabilities like mold parting lines in the door handles. Big Deal. Meanwhile the performance (INCLUDING road performance) of the modern fbody is magnificent. If GM believes 5gen owners are going to fret and moan about design parameters that keep the car affordable, well then, the 5gen will not be very affordable and will only be accessible to the affluent. The good news here though - GM has been learning steadily how to make quality at low cost - and that will be reflected too in the 5gen.

I won't proclaim to be an expert in chassis rigidity, but if rigity and interior rattles are not an issue, then why do SO MANY 3rd and 4th Gen owners install Sub Frame Connectors (either welded or bolt on)?

And why do so many not only say the car flexs so much less after teh SFC's, but say also helps solves a lot of the interior squeeks and rattles? (This would shoot down saying that all interior squeeks and rattles have nothing to do with chassis rigity... I say it does. What works them loose? I think flex likely has a lot to do with that, but again, I am no expert.))

And saying, as IZ28 did, "We all need SFC's, from the 1st Gen to the 4th Gen, solve it and stop complaining." is crazy. How about solving the problem before the car leaves the drawing board?

And why do so many not only say the car flexs so much less after teh SFC's, but say also helps solves a lot of the interior squeeks and rattles?

I don't doubt that SFC's, properly manufactured, installed and protected from corrosion, do in fact help with this. The problem I see is when owners expect them to be a cure-all and protect them from all NVH, including that caused by owner abuse or neglect.

Originally posted by Darth Xed
And saying, as IZ28 did, "We all need SFC's, from the 1st Gen to the 4th Gen, solve it and stop complaining." is crazy. How about solving the problem before the car leaves the drawing board?

Oh I agree completely. It should've been that way for all of them and hopefully it isn't that way for the 5th Gen.

Originally posted by steves
Even the older SS avg'ed over 33k. I've even see a few verts at 40+.

Man, that's expensive! Maybe things are just cheaper in the South, but I think the most I ever saw for an F-body was about $31,000 for a loaded '02 SS. It wasn't a convertible, though. In fact, I don't think I can remember seeing any SS convertibles at the dealership. Come to think of it, I can only remember seeing one SS convertible, period. :confused: