What's a torque converter and does it help?
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 216
From: St. Louis, MO
Originally posted by Bliggida
Factory converter stall is at 1800 RPM - hasn't changed.
Factory converter stall is at 1800 RPM - hasn't changed.
Originally posted by Bliggida You can have too much stall ya know?!?
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 216
From: St. Louis, MO
Originally posted by nothingeined
what brand do you guys recommend???
what brand do you guys recommend???
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,000
From: TX Med Ctr
Originally posted by Bliggida
With a stock converter is acts like a clutch in that it is preset to engage full lock up at 1,800 RPM or so.
With a stock converter is acts like a clutch in that it is preset to engage full lock up at 1,800 RPM or so.
But with a 2,500 RPM stall converter you can revv much higher while still holding the brakes. So that when you release your engine is spinning at 2,500 and the converter locks up and sends that power straight to the tranny.
So at idle, a manual should lose to an automatic.
Anyway, a step up from the stock converter would give you a noticeable differance in power felt. Maybe a 2,000 to 2,200 RPM stall converter. TCI has a good list of which one would be right for you and your modifications.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 412
From: SAY Town
Hazz, you have some good info, but I don't think you fully understand converters. Or you wouldn't be saying those things. My analogy of a race at idle was a very good one. If you fail to see the logic in it - ??? If you're not open to understanding I can't have a conversation with you.
There is a heck of a lot about converters that the post your pasted (which someone else wrote, and also not a professional with any credentials) didn't include, nor did you youself mention. Such as the fact that your listed stall speed, and what the car can be revved to on the line are two different things. 2,200 stall doesn't mean that you'll put your tach on 2,200 RPM. You seem to think so. You didn't factor in or mention anything about heat, line pressures, etc. There is so much more, but to the guy who just wants a little improvement over stock, is there really a need for myself to explain everything, or can I just some it up and keep it limited to what he wants to know and how it will affect him.
Now if you want to actually discuss in depth about torque converters, thats fine, but in this thread I think we should keep it limited to the question at hand. He didn't ask for the Converter Encyclopedia.
There is a heck of a lot about converters that the post your pasted (which someone else wrote, and also not a professional with any credentials) didn't include, nor did you youself mention. Such as the fact that your listed stall speed, and what the car can be revved to on the line are two different things. 2,200 stall doesn't mean that you'll put your tach on 2,200 RPM. You seem to think so. You didn't factor in or mention anything about heat, line pressures, etc. There is so much more, but to the guy who just wants a little improvement over stock, is there really a need for myself to explain everything, or can I just some it up and keep it limited to what he wants to know and how it will affect him.
Now if you want to actually discuss in depth about torque converters, thats fine, but in this thread I think we should keep it limited to the question at hand. He didn't ask for the Converter Encyclopedia.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,000
From: TX Med Ctr
Originally posted by Bliggida
Hazz, you have some good info, but I don't think you fully understand converters. Or you wouldn't be saying those things. My analogy of a race at idle was a very good one. If you fail to see the logic in it - ??? If you're not open to understanding I can't have a conversation with you.
There is a heck of a lot about converters that the post your pasted (which someone else wrote, and also not a professional with any credentials) didn't include, nor did you youself mention. Such as the fact that your listed stall speed, and what the car can be revved to on the line are two different things. 2,200 stall doesn't mean that you'll put your tach on 2,200 RPM. You seem to think so. You didn't factor in or mention anything about heat, line pressures, etc. There is so much more, but to the guy who just wants a little improvement over stock, is there really a need for myself to explain everything, or can I just some it up and keep it limited to what he wants to know and how it will affect him.
Now if you want to actually discuss in depth about torque converters, thats fine, but in this thread I think we should keep it limited to the question at hand. He didn't ask for the Converter Encyclopedia.
Hazz, you have some good info, but I don't think you fully understand converters. Or you wouldn't be saying those things. My analogy of a race at idle was a very good one. If you fail to see the logic in it - ??? If you're not open to understanding I can't have a conversation with you.
There is a heck of a lot about converters that the post your pasted (which someone else wrote, and also not a professional with any credentials) didn't include, nor did you youself mention. Such as the fact that your listed stall speed, and what the car can be revved to on the line are two different things. 2,200 stall doesn't mean that you'll put your tach on 2,200 RPM. You seem to think so. You didn't factor in or mention anything about heat, line pressures, etc. There is so much more, but to the guy who just wants a little improvement over stock, is there really a need for myself to explain everything, or can I just some it up and keep it limited to what he wants to know and how it will affect him.
Now if you want to actually discuss in depth about torque converters, thats fine, but in this thread I think we should keep it limited to the question at hand. He didn't ask for the Converter Encyclopedia.
The guy that wrote that is Andre over at Edge converters. Who would be a professional and has credentials...
Race at idle again. Looks like I read it bacwards... it was late. But, a lot would depend on the clutch in the manual. Plus, an aftermarket high stall vertered car would creep less at idle than one with a stock verter.
I agree that the rpm that you can brake rev the car up to is not the same as the rated stall. I never in fact said that it was. I don't know where you got that from. You were the one that stated something that may be construed in that manner. If you are refering to my comment about the 2000+ cars, I was demonstrating that the stall speed is around 2100rpm. That is the fact. I think you need to take out a 97 and a 2000 and see the difference for yourself. Let me ask you something... if you can brake rev past 1800, what does that say about the rated stall speed?
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 4
Bliggida... I would wonder what would make you more qualified then all the rest? Perhaps you build performance converters and have a better understanding then the next guy, but I see no reason to turn a good question into a heated debate.
nothingeined,
If I understand the question all you would like is the benifits of the converter upgrade.....
The V-6 (both the 3.4 and 3.8) make almost constant torque readings from 3200-4400 rpm.
The upgraded stall will put you near, or into your power band and make use of the torque your combination makes off the line.
The increase in STR would make better use of this torque by giving you a higher multiplication ratio for the first 60ft + or - (depending on launch technic).
The stall figures many performance manufactures give are accurate off a transbrake, or better known as true stall. The well configured 3000 rpm stall converter will give you about 2500rpm off the foot brake and flash to the true stall reading plus the added rpm related to the converters ineffiiciency.
The later model years (L1999-2002) use a higher stall converter then the earlier 1996-E1999. The factory stall varied due to inconsistent clearances but as a rule the 1996-1999 had stall in the 1800rpm range, while the later models had stall closer to 2100rpm
At the point of true stall, the stator is no longer a multiplier and what you have is "full coupling" (not one to one, but as good as it will get). This coupling was refered to as "lock up" in Bliggida's first post.
Lock up is when the converter uses a friction to apply surface instead of the fluid coupling to bring the pump and turbine to nearly one to one. This happens on topend in most cases, but GM used PWM theory in the later model 4L60E and this will pulse engage the lock up piston from 2nd gear on.
Nuff said
nothingeined,
If I understand the question all you would like is the benifits of the converter upgrade.....
The V-6 (both the 3.4 and 3.8) make almost constant torque readings from 3200-4400 rpm.
The upgraded stall will put you near, or into your power band and make use of the torque your combination makes off the line.
The increase in STR would make better use of this torque by giving you a higher multiplication ratio for the first 60ft + or - (depending on launch technic).
The stall figures many performance manufactures give are accurate off a transbrake, or better known as true stall. The well configured 3000 rpm stall converter will give you about 2500rpm off the foot brake and flash to the true stall reading plus the added rpm related to the converters ineffiiciency.
The later model years (L1999-2002) use a higher stall converter then the earlier 1996-E1999. The factory stall varied due to inconsistent clearances but as a rule the 1996-1999 had stall in the 1800rpm range, while the later models had stall closer to 2100rpm
At the point of true stall, the stator is no longer a multiplier and what you have is "full coupling" (not one to one, but as good as it will get). This coupling was refered to as "lock up" in Bliggida's first post.
Lock up is when the converter uses a friction to apply surface instead of the fluid coupling to bring the pump and turbine to nearly one to one. This happens on topend in most cases, but GM used PWM theory in the later model 4L60E and this will pulse engage the lock up piston from 2nd gear on.
Nuff said
Registered User
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 330
From: Oxnard, CA
Stall speed is when the engine and transmission is almost at a 1-1 ratio.....due to fin design and stator design....causeing the fluid to make a virtual fluid coupling.
The car will move under its stall speed.....but it will feel more like a slipping clutch than a lower stall speed TC.
The higher the stall speed....the higher the heat generated by the TC (hence why you need to add a cooler if you are running a high stall speed TC) due to the fluid sheer.
The idea of a high stall speed TC is so that u can get the engine into its "power band" quicker.....and lets you leave the line (if the correct stall speed tc is selected) at the beginning of the "power band".
Example.....being on my diesel....I LOWERED the stall speed to get it closer to 1600rpm (peak torque).....but selected a stator that gave INSANE torque multiplication numbers.....so that 800ft.lbs is like 1800ft.lbs when I leave the line
...hence why a 7500lbs truck has a 2.1 60.ft
No two converters are gonna be correct for every application, and you need to do the homework.
On our V6 cars....that are street cars 99.5% of the time....a 3000rpm stall is the most I would want to run. But when around town.....until it "stalls" or the TC clutch locks up....it will feel like you have a slipping clutch.
As for stall speed on different years.......my "slow as a snail on weed" 3.4...stalls at 2000rpm....period.
Was reading the stuff above...and hell it was getting me confused......and I know my stuff
The car will move under its stall speed.....but it will feel more like a slipping clutch than a lower stall speed TC.
The higher the stall speed....the higher the heat generated by the TC (hence why you need to add a cooler if you are running a high stall speed TC) due to the fluid sheer.
The idea of a high stall speed TC is so that u can get the engine into its "power band" quicker.....and lets you leave the line (if the correct stall speed tc is selected) at the beginning of the "power band".
Example.....being on my diesel....I LOWERED the stall speed to get it closer to 1600rpm (peak torque).....but selected a stator that gave INSANE torque multiplication numbers.....so that 800ft.lbs is like 1800ft.lbs when I leave the line
...hence why a 7500lbs truck has a 2.1 60.ftNo two converters are gonna be correct for every application, and you need to do the homework.
On our V6 cars....that are street cars 99.5% of the time....a 3000rpm stall is the most I would want to run. But when around town.....until it "stalls" or the TC clutch locks up....it will feel like you have a slipping clutch.
As for stall speed on different years.......my "slow as a snail on weed" 3.4...stalls at 2000rpm....period.
Was reading the stuff above...and hell it was getting me confused......and I know my stuff
Last edited by All_InTheRED; Feb 28, 2003 at 01:22 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,000
From: TX Med Ctr
Originally posted by All_InTheRED
Stall speed is when the engine and transmission is almost at a 1-1 ratio.....due to fin design and stator design....causeing the fluid to make a virtual fluid coupling.
Stall speed is when the engine and transmission is almost at a 1-1 ratio.....due to fin design and stator design....causeing the fluid to make a virtual fluid coupling.
Stall is the speed at which the converter will hold the engine speed and not allow further gain
The car will move under its stall speed.....but it will feel more like a slipping clutch than a lower stall speed TC.
The idea of a high stall speed TC is so that u can get the engine into its "power band" quicker.....and lets you leave the line (if the correct stall speed tc is selected) at the beginning of the "power band".
On our V6 cars....that are street cars 99.5% of the time....a 3000rpm stall is the most I would want to run. But when around town.....until it "stalls" or the TC clutch locks up....it will feel like you have a slipping clutch.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,000
From: TX Med Ctr
Originally posted by 68SSElCamino
Bliggida... I would wonder what would make you more qualified then all the rest? Perhaps you build performance converters and have a better understanding then the next guy, but I see no reason to turn a good question into a heated debate.
nothingeined,
If I understand the question all you would like is the benifits of the converter upgrade.....
The V-6 (both the 3.4 and 3.8) make almost constant torque readings from 3200-4400 rpm.
The upgraded stall will put you near, or into your power band and make use of the torque your combination makes off the line.
The increase in STR would make better use of this torque by giving you a higher multiplication ratio for the first 60ft + or - (depending on launch technic).
The stall figures many performance manufactures give are accurate off a transbrake, or better known as true stall. The well configured 3000 rpm stall converter will give you about 2500rpm off the foot brake and flash to the true stall reading plus the added rpm related to the converters ineffiiciency.
The later model years (L1999-2002) use a higher stall converter then the earlier 1996-E1999. The factory stall varied due to inconsistent clearances but as a rule the 1996-1999 had stall in the 1800rpm range, while the later models had stall closer to 2100rpm
At the point of true stall, the stator is no longer a multiplier and what you have is "full coupling" (not one to one, but as good as it will get). This coupling was refered to as "lock up" in Bliggida's first post.
Lock up is when the converter uses a friction to apply surface instead of the fluid coupling to bring the pump and turbine to nearly one to one. This happens on topend in most cases, but GM used PWM theory in the later model 4L60E and this will pulse engage the lock up piston from 2nd gear on.
Nuff said
Bliggida... I would wonder what would make you more qualified then all the rest? Perhaps you build performance converters and have a better understanding then the next guy, but I see no reason to turn a good question into a heated debate.
nothingeined,
If I understand the question all you would like is the benifits of the converter upgrade.....
The V-6 (both the 3.4 and 3.8) make almost constant torque readings from 3200-4400 rpm.
The upgraded stall will put you near, or into your power band and make use of the torque your combination makes off the line.
The increase in STR would make better use of this torque by giving you a higher multiplication ratio for the first 60ft + or - (depending on launch technic).
The stall figures many performance manufactures give are accurate off a transbrake, or better known as true stall. The well configured 3000 rpm stall converter will give you about 2500rpm off the foot brake and flash to the true stall reading plus the added rpm related to the converters ineffiiciency.
The later model years (L1999-2002) use a higher stall converter then the earlier 1996-E1999. The factory stall varied due to inconsistent clearances but as a rule the 1996-1999 had stall in the 1800rpm range, while the later models had stall closer to 2100rpm
At the point of true stall, the stator is no longer a multiplier and what you have is "full coupling" (not one to one, but as good as it will get). This coupling was refered to as "lock up" in Bliggida's first post.
Lock up is when the converter uses a friction to apply surface instead of the fluid coupling to bring the pump and turbine to nearly one to one. This happens on topend in most cases, but GM used PWM theory in the later model 4L60E and this will pulse engage the lock up piston from 2nd gear on.
Nuff said
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 608
From: windber pa
i have a 3600 stall and quikte a few guys have3500+ on their v6, bliggida you seem like the type of person that only knows something about a product just on the facts that you go to websites and copy and paste info, andre at edge is quite knowledgeable im sure his knowledge far surpasses yours. you just seem like a common idiot sorry
Eternal Member
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 142
From: Atlanta, Geogia
...and Bliggada
I was posting on my gf's account by accident [jenaz28]
Your comment was that with a high race converter an automatic could hit 3000 at best.
I told you that there were plenty 5000+RPM converters for automatics. You weren't talking about strictly V6s at that point, and neither was I, tough guy.
Thanks for locking this thread.
I was posting on my gf's account by accident [jenaz28]
Your comment was that with a high race converter an automatic could hit 3000 at best.
I told you that there were plenty 5000+RPM converters for automatics. You weren't talking about strictly V6s at that point, and neither was I, tough guy.
Thanks for locking this thread.
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