Stock head is the stock head that is on the engine when you get the car.

Again, I've seen a lot of B series motors, but I have yet to see a car that runs "very fast" using the VTEC head, but I see a lot of guys claiming to run VTEC engines and have removed the VTEC... This is either a mis-speak on their part, or they swapped heads. If you change the head, it is no longer stock, right?. Hence my comment that I only saw one still using the VTEC head... Misspeak on my part.

And yes I realize there is a strong lack of aftermarket head castings in the import market. That is one of the strongest things the domestic crowd has for itself, aside from which the plethera of aftermarket blocks as well.

I remember one day on dsmtalk when someone says "hey, what happens if we take a galant 2.4L crank and stick it into the engine during a rebuild? With these rods and pistons we should get a 2.3L! A few guys started stroking their engines. Wierd to see on a 4 banger... "Bored and Stroked" is not seen that often at all compared to domestics...

 

ok you still saying the same thing. You Cant change the head. because there are no aftermarket heads to change to. and a non vtec head doesnt flow even close to a vtec head, so noone would change a vtec head to a non vtec head. its like taking of my coil packs and switching to an lt1's optispark system.

there is a lack because for one the honda casting can support over 1000whp when ported, its more important to get the power that the stock casting can produce to the ground rather than make more power dart buys heads from honda, ports them then resell them. the reason they dont make thier own head is because honda already did teh R&D and did such a great a job its hard to make anything better. if you did make something better (a) the r&d alone would foce you to sell it for some outrageos price that would never sell. (B) the stock casting still makes more and more power every year and cars get faster and faster. they havent found the stock castings limit yet.

boring and stroking is more popular on domestics because they dont rely on head flow and rod to stroke ratio to make power, they rely on raw displacement. look at a 350 lt1. it theortically has enough cid to make 650+hp n/a but you never see that. you dont even see that on 383's you only sesm to have a chance making that power from nothing less than a 396. now we know it can be done. look at nascars, they use 355 cid motors, they just have heads that you cant run in a street car.
Gm philosophy- big cid, poor flowing intake and head. lots of low end tq
Import philosophy- small cid, massive head flow lots of high rpms hp and tq instead of lots of low end hp and tq

so how do u mod both cars?

GM- replace crank,bore, replace camshaft, replace heads, replace intake. add nitorus
not enough power? stroke even more, or replace heads again to stage 3 then add more nitrous
import- upgrade rods and pistons, add turbo, turn up boost.
not enough power? add a bigger turbo, run even more boost.

now we can bicker back and forth all day long, in the end you will say "well top fuel dragsters run 4's so there" even though that has nothing to do with the topic

fact is if you want a FAST 9,10 or 11 second street car, you can build either a mustang,fbody or honda. you and many may hate that but that is how it is.
and I am asking you again. do you have a 10 second timeslip?

 

I cant give you 10 second timeslip from the camaro. The only one I could give you is the old Grand National (10.72) but that is not only no longer a car I can claim my own, it was a while ago. It was lost to make way for the Camaro. And the Camaro will not hit the track this season because of weather. Do you have a 10 second time slip? I can ask the same of you. How many cars have you owned that are capable of a 10 second pass, and have made them? The Camaro in the spring will make the passes easily, but it cannot now.

Dont ask me why they have ditched the VTEC. I couldnt tell you why. Why someone removed the VTEC from their engine, swapped the head or what have you. I dont know why and I dont care what their individual motives were. I know it happened, that I saw the results, and that the car ran like a bat out of ___ without it.

Swapping OEM heads is swapping OEM heads. They are no longer stock. You seem to miss my point. You bolting on LS6 castings on your Ws6. You are no longer running stock heads. Swapping a head from another engine or car is no longer stock. It is not the equipment originally specified or it's equiv. Changing the head to another head that was not specified is no longer stock. Are you missing that?

Or that'd let me put an LS6 into a Cavalier and have it be "stock"...

Also on large cid motors, GM included, the constant replacement is not always necessary. Finally the LS1 is really starting to claim some incredible numbers, as is the 4.6L boosted motor from Ford. 5.0L mods are dime a dozen. You can get 1000hp from a Honda with boosting that engine, but you will not get 1000hp from it N/A. Same issue you have with small blocks. N/A an lt1 in stock trim doesnt produce much power. If you put together enough shortblock, you could probably push 30psi into the cylinder and make 1000hp while loosing a lot to flow losses. With boost anything can be done, if the bottom end can hold. Hondas and Domestics are the same in that regard. If LT1s came with stronger pistons there would be a different story, but there are those pushing the stock rods, heads and crank into the 10's. It can be done... with boost. LS1 stock engines are pushing cars to the 10 second mark with nitrous and/or boost. The Cobras are certainly capable as well, though I havent looked far into them the past year.

Top Fuel Dragsters have nothing to do with anything realistic, though they are insane pieces of work.

Also another reason why I love my domestics - rpm kills even the best engines. high rpm under low boost can be much worse then low rpm high boost. There is only so much the assembly can take.

I understand that you support your imports, I can understand why you enjoy them. I enjoy the imports as well. But my original point of $12k has still yet to be backed up, which has been danced around beautifully. I have yet to see the breakdown of how $12000 get you a 10 second car, nor have I seen any slips from the results of that specifically. I am not debating the quality of the honda head. I dont think the stock block is certainly good for 1000hp. I think it can take it, but I dont think it's solid for it. The ratios inside the engine are immense and dont see how thats "easy". I am not debating that hondas run 10's. I'm debating that $12k for a 10 second car is not easily done. Why cant you back that statement up? Why not answer my question on intercoolers? You comment that I know nothing about this stuff when I probably know as much as you do. You comment that I dont know what I'm talking about terms, blocks, and the like.

Honda did a good job making that damn head. But it isnt perfect, or bulletproof. There is more to be had there, and if you dont think so, you're insane. There is always more. But why build a head that only a few hundred people will ever buy? What's the point? How many owners will by the new trick flow lt1 heads? There is R&D to be done. And they need volume to justify it. We tried to get stuff like that on the DSM head as there is only so much port you can get from it. The stock Honda head is no different. Notice the port dimensions, port volume and intake runner dimensions on the honda engine you love and compare them to the LS6. There is room to be had, but the question is how to get it. The Honda head isnt the perfect head ever built. Noticing how a 4g63 head lays out... and port volume... why is it that two heads that flow very close numbers... have one group starting to port their casting at a 400-450hp mark? You say honda owners dont need to till the 600hp mark. Why do DSM guys start when they have less power?

If you want a fast car for cheap you buy a fbody, a mustang, a honda, a 240ZX, a 240SX, an old Supra, a grand national if you get a good deal, or a DSM. All of them have proven themselves as cheap platforms for lots of power. All different costs, all different weights, all different outputs. You can even buy a neon for not too much and mod the crap out of the 420a motor...

 

Geoff I thought I did show you bouncing back and forth thru different threads and all, ok I guess I will do it now. then I am dieing to hear your nit picking afterwards. first I will show the proper way. as in built to last.
I will show you original motor built, plus swapped motor built. and I will try not to leave anything out.
Car
I did a search for cars between 0$ and $1500 and got two pages full, and only the first 9 are actually $1500 but I will use the $1500

stage 4 FULLY built turbo shortblock $2700
springs and retainer kit $320
complete turbo kit minus piping $675 that turbo will be sold
premade piping $320

intercooler $189
fuel 75 pound injectors at $80 each, times 4 is $320
255lph fuel pump $119
stage 3 clucth and flywheel $424
coilovers $165
Tokico HP shocks $209
60-1 turbo $695
uberdata engine management-- FREE its a free program that everyone is tuning with. but just because I know you will nitpick. I will show you hondata with boost option $495
fuel pressure regulator $129
3 bar map sensor $51
radiator $289
now this may sound funny to you but a pep boys generic fan is a big upgrade for hondas. $60
autometer boost guage $45 oil guage kit $107

ok thats the bulk of it I guess, I dont know if I left anything out, keep in mind that you can do even better than that, just shopping for deals on HT (which is what everyone does), plus you can resell that first turbo. this is $8752 out of 12k leaves $3248 to play with incase I left anything out. or do a swap,paint the car,port the head, add an intake, buy bling bling wheels and tires,whatever.. with that built motor and that turbo and fuel system, you can EASILY make 500hp. even though 390hp is all you need in a honda to run 10.99@130.and keepin mind these are top dollar figures, I didnt look for any deals or speccials. it can be done for even less.

 

I have no issues to free tuning. If you can do it cheap or free, more power to ya. Not many cars can.

Only issue I have is with the SSautochrome manifold. I've heard quality issues with their manifolds and other products that made me nervous, I'd rather go with a tial or something, but that'd involve more looking like you said. If honda guys like it then sure, but I know some DSM guys pulling their parts had a lot of cracking issues or bad springs in the wastegate.

I know there are a few things missing, like a cat back, high flow cat and the fab to get the downpipe together, head gasket, head studs/bolts, perhaps an oil cooler (but that's a preference thing). Also maybe some shifter bushings, but that's a preference thing too. Different motor mounts, bushings, and a few bucks of new vacume lines and misc bolts. I'd throw in a $70 bolt kit, just as you're building a new motor. Then of course we have the roll cage, but there's probably someone out there making a really nice one or a kit for cheap. At 200,000 miles though you will have to replace a lot of other parts on the way. Ditch the A/C most likely, perhaps a new power steering pump or alternator. Maybe a few other things that need work. That's just typical of a vehicle with the miles and really shouldnt be forgotten. I made the mistake of forgetting ball joints into my maintenence on the camaro at 140k... That was sickly expensive.

Those are reasonable numbers for parts. But that does not include any labor aside from building the shortblock. That's where it gets hazy. I have no problem with those numbers, but now to have those parts installed by a pro would take easily the rest of the cash you have there. That's my one issue, and that's why I said it really couldnt be done easily for $12k having the labor and mod work done.

If you want to do it yourself, then sure, not really an issue. Some people here cant swap the cam in their lt1 or will not remove the engine. If you can do it yourself and throw it together then that's awesome. Not many of us can.

A friend bought a 93 or 94 Saturn and ran a 8psi turbo kit on the thing. Spent I think $700 and did all the fab work (aside from the exhaust manifold) himself. Made the downpipe, intercooler pipes, etc.

Realize my issue has always been that it was said the install could be done with pro labor. That's the killer.

Nitpick otherwise? Nah.

 

here is the thing. people still come out on top even with pro tuning and labor, as I said most eople dont go shoping all over teh internet like I just did to show you parts 90% of what u need u can get in the honda-tech forced induction classified section, rods, pistons, turbos, inercooler etc ec, all brand new or slightly used. you also can find (although very rare I will admit) a civic that lready has a swap for $3k I have seen a few (not many) with GSR swaps. bro you have HT's sponsers section always running dealsand then u got the FI section. check this link out for teh next 7 days and you will see what I mean.

honda-tech forced induction classifieds

you can even find sleeved never been used blocks. its a very big community.