Tokico HP Shocks
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Registered User
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 248
From: New Jersey
Tokico HP Shocks
Anyone on here run them? I bought the Vogtland 1.2" lowering springs off the Group Purchase forum, and the guy recommended using the Tokico HP shocks. It just so happens they have these shocks in the Group Purchase forum now, so I'm thinking about buying them.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 715
From: Brookville, PA
Re: Tokico HP Shocks
The springs you bought are extremely stiff. They are stiffer than I use on my coil-over/weight jacker setup for autocross. And the Tokico's for this car are just not all that great. The parts individually have room for improvement, but teaming them up is a doubly bad idea.
The shocks don't have enough damping control for springs lighter than what you bought. And that's a problem since shocks are *spring dampers*.
The shocks don't have enough damping control for springs lighter than what you bought. And that's a problem since shocks are *spring dampers*.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 248
From: New Jersey
Re: Tokico HP Shocks
I think they're running around $300. What shocks would you suggest using for these springs? I was told on the phone that these springs would not have an extremely rough ride, I guess that was dead wrong.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 715
From: Brookville, PA
Re: Tokico HP Shocks
The trouble is it's all relative. What's rough to you might not be to someone else. Details matter, and the quality and settings of the shocks matter as much as the spring rates. But a stiffer spring is less prone to moving when you hit road imperfections. A harder ride is the result.
I run 600 front, 150 rears on my car with coil-overs. And I wouldn't have that setup if the car wasn't mostly geared for autocross. Is it unbearable? No, not at all. It's actually better riding that stock shocks and springs, but that's mostly due to the Koni's and the very poor damping of the stock shocks. I drive it a lot, and for very long distances (in a race seat too), it's a fine driver. If my car was a street car only, I'd have something softer in it simply because there is no need for springs like I have and I can't use the limit of what I have on the street anyway.
Stock springs are about 292 in front, and around 115 in the rear. They vary a bit, but are about that. Just work the percentages and see how much stiffer those springs are. Actually, the front isn't bad, but the rear is insanely stiff. Not only will that make for a hard ride, but also a balance that's very rearward biased because the rear is being made much too stiff relative to the front. Let me give you a sense of the rates.... 1LE springs, they are 360 in the front and 130-180 rear. Your rears start stiffer than 1LE's ever got, and then get about 20% stiffer.
Because of the rate, I only see you have one choice, and it's not cheap. Koni's are the only shocks that can handle that rear spring rate (a few can do the front, but not the rears). And they are $705 and up. Other springs open the door to other less expensive shocks, and better ride compliance and handling.
Something to think about.
I run 600 front, 150 rears on my car with coil-overs. And I wouldn't have that setup if the car wasn't mostly geared for autocross. Is it unbearable? No, not at all. It's actually better riding that stock shocks and springs, but that's mostly due to the Koni's and the very poor damping of the stock shocks. I drive it a lot, and for very long distances (in a race seat too), it's a fine driver. If my car was a street car only, I'd have something softer in it simply because there is no need for springs like I have and I can't use the limit of what I have on the street anyway.
Stock springs are about 292 in front, and around 115 in the rear. They vary a bit, but are about that. Just work the percentages and see how much stiffer those springs are. Actually, the front isn't bad, but the rear is insanely stiff. Not only will that make for a hard ride, but also a balance that's very rearward biased because the rear is being made much too stiff relative to the front. Let me give you a sense of the rates.... 1LE springs, they are 360 in the front and 130-180 rear. Your rears start stiffer than 1LE's ever got, and then get about 20% stiffer.
Because of the rate, I only see you have one choice, and it's not cheap. Koni's are the only shocks that can handle that rear spring rate (a few can do the front, but not the rears). And they are $705 and up. Other springs open the door to other less expensive shocks, and better ride compliance and handling.
Something to think about.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2
From: So. Cal
Re: Tokico HP Shocks
Sam has some valid points about the springs having a higher rate than stock, however, I am not sure if he has actually used or evaluated our springs with either the Koni or Tokico dampers. These springs are designed in such a manner that you normally do not get into the extremes of the spring rate until the car is well into the jounce bumper. Both shocks are of a twin tube design and when used for their intended application perform quite well with the Vogtland springs.
The Vogtland springs were designed has part of our “Club Spec” series of suspension products. We designed these springs to be a compromise between a street and track application to provide the best of both worlds. While the spring kit is ultimately a compromise in one area or the other it truly provides an upgrade vs. most applications currently on the market which are designed to be more of an appearance product. These are performance springs; they are made from our “VVS” spring alloy material which allows us to significantly reduce the spring weight. This is beneficial in several ways one of them being reduced unsprung mass and the other being the spring has a much higher natural frequency, therefore they operate at a much higher frequency than the suspensions natural frequency. The Vogtland spring kit has a combined weight of 32 lb. vs. a weight of 39 lb. for a popular competitor’s product, while their springs have a softer rate which would not be deemed appropriate for track use.
The Tokico HP shock is a good quality street performance shock and I would not be opposed to running it if you are driving the car on the street. Should you wish to drive the car at track events I would certainly recommend the Koni sport valved shocks combined with our springs. If you really want a dual purpose car for street and track then Koni is the way to go.
There is no need for Vogtland to produce springs with spring characteristics that are already on the market. Being in the industry for 18+ years I know the other popular suspension products very well. I have designed many of the Gen III and IV performance aftermarket springs that are on the market today. I also have had first hand experience running these cars in various track events and have worked with companies and individuals that campaigned these cars at both regional and professional levels. Therefore, this experience has provided some insight on how these vehicles behave under various street and track conditions.
I included some additional information about our springs so you can better understand our tuning philosophy.
Vogtland Part Number: 959213
Individual components of spring kit:
• Front Spring P/N: 959213 VA
• Rear Spring P/N: 959213 HA
• “Product Registration Card”, “Individual Part Trace-ability”, instructions, and Vogtland “Promo-Pak”.
Product Characteristics: The spring kit is intended as an all-purpose street and track performance enhancement product. When a vehicle is equipped with Vogtland Club Spec springs there are several elements that improve the overall handling. Vogtland lowering is designed to take advantage of the existing suspension geometry and to optimize the relationship of the roll center axis relative to the center of gravity of the vehicle. The amount of lowering improves the appearance of the vehicle and provides the best compromise between the ride and performance handling characteristics.
Vogtland’s ICS (Inertia Control System) technology is utilized to provide a non-compromising performance ride. By utilizing “compound rate” springs the unsprung mass of the vehicle is controlled and the inertia of the suspension components do not exceed the springs’ capacity to control the jounce loads, hence eliminating the requirement for excessive spring rates. The initial rate is designed to provide the O.E. spring pre-load when the suspension is at full rebound. When the suspension is functioning in its normal operating range the springs “compound rate” provides a controlled performance ride but offers enough compliance to maintain occupancy comfort for street use.
The working range of the spring provides for predictable linear rate increase during the compression stroke. This eliminates unpredictable handling characteristics (i.e. corner entry understeer and corner exit oversteer) normally associated with a progressive spring. Vogtland’s optimized spring calibration also reduces the pitch of the vehicle under heavy acceleration or braking. The increased rate of the springs reduce the load transfer to the front tires during heavy braking this reduces the longitudinal pitch of the vehicle, resulting in improved overall braking efficiency.
The proportionate increase in spring rate also reduces body roll, which limits adverse suspension movement. This confines the suspension geometry to stay within parameters that enhance the tires contact patch relative to the road. The result is improved vehicle cornering and handling, because front and rear tire loading is more evenly distributed. Therefore, higher cornering limits can be achieved because the built-in understeer characteristics are reduced and provide for a more neutral yet safe handling vehicle.
These springs are manufactured utilizing Vogtland’s proprietary suspension grade “VVS” spring alloy. Vogtland’s VVS alloy is used exclusively in all our race spring applications. Vogtland’s racing springs are used by all of the most respected Nextel Cup Teams such as Dale Earnhardt Inc, Hendrick Motorsports, Robert Yates Racing, etc. By using “VVS” we can reduce the spring weight up to 30% over conventional suspension spring materials. This results in reduced unsprung weight and reduces the suspension inertia allowing the suspension to react more quickly to road surface irregularities, hence providing additional traction.
Technical Specifications:
Approximate Lowering:
• Front: 1.30” (32 mm)
• Rear: 1.18” (30mm)
Spring Type:
• Front: “Compound Rate” helical compression constrained by damper.
• Rear: “Progressive Rate” helical compression, constrained by chassis and axle.
Spring Configuration:
• Front: Top- reduced end open to fit seat. Bottom- tangential end open end gap
• Rear: Top- tangential end closed. Bottom- reduced end open to fit seat.
Spring Rate:
• Front: 336 lb./in. – 542 lb./in. working range 440 – 542 lb./in.
• Rear: 77 lb./in. – 228 lb./in. working range 183 – 228 lb./in.
Please note that I am not using this as a venue to sell our product, but at the same time I want to make sure that we provide the appropriate information about our products.
I hope that you find this information helpful in selecting a spring kit for your needs.
Richard Jonec
The Vogtland springs were designed has part of our “Club Spec” series of suspension products. We designed these springs to be a compromise between a street and track application to provide the best of both worlds. While the spring kit is ultimately a compromise in one area or the other it truly provides an upgrade vs. most applications currently on the market which are designed to be more of an appearance product. These are performance springs; they are made from our “VVS” spring alloy material which allows us to significantly reduce the spring weight. This is beneficial in several ways one of them being reduced unsprung mass and the other being the spring has a much higher natural frequency, therefore they operate at a much higher frequency than the suspensions natural frequency. The Vogtland spring kit has a combined weight of 32 lb. vs. a weight of 39 lb. for a popular competitor’s product, while their springs have a softer rate which would not be deemed appropriate for track use.
The Tokico HP shock is a good quality street performance shock and I would not be opposed to running it if you are driving the car on the street. Should you wish to drive the car at track events I would certainly recommend the Koni sport valved shocks combined with our springs. If you really want a dual purpose car for street and track then Koni is the way to go.
There is no need for Vogtland to produce springs with spring characteristics that are already on the market. Being in the industry for 18+ years I know the other popular suspension products very well. I have designed many of the Gen III and IV performance aftermarket springs that are on the market today. I also have had first hand experience running these cars in various track events and have worked with companies and individuals that campaigned these cars at both regional and professional levels. Therefore, this experience has provided some insight on how these vehicles behave under various street and track conditions.
I included some additional information about our springs so you can better understand our tuning philosophy.
Vogtland Part Number: 959213
Individual components of spring kit:
• Front Spring P/N: 959213 VA
• Rear Spring P/N: 959213 HA
• “Product Registration Card”, “Individual Part Trace-ability”, instructions, and Vogtland “Promo-Pak”.
Product Characteristics: The spring kit is intended as an all-purpose street and track performance enhancement product. When a vehicle is equipped with Vogtland Club Spec springs there are several elements that improve the overall handling. Vogtland lowering is designed to take advantage of the existing suspension geometry and to optimize the relationship of the roll center axis relative to the center of gravity of the vehicle. The amount of lowering improves the appearance of the vehicle and provides the best compromise between the ride and performance handling characteristics.
Vogtland’s ICS (Inertia Control System) technology is utilized to provide a non-compromising performance ride. By utilizing “compound rate” springs the unsprung mass of the vehicle is controlled and the inertia of the suspension components do not exceed the springs’ capacity to control the jounce loads, hence eliminating the requirement for excessive spring rates. The initial rate is designed to provide the O.E. spring pre-load when the suspension is at full rebound. When the suspension is functioning in its normal operating range the springs “compound rate” provides a controlled performance ride but offers enough compliance to maintain occupancy comfort for street use.
The working range of the spring provides for predictable linear rate increase during the compression stroke. This eliminates unpredictable handling characteristics (i.e. corner entry understeer and corner exit oversteer) normally associated with a progressive spring. Vogtland’s optimized spring calibration also reduces the pitch of the vehicle under heavy acceleration or braking. The increased rate of the springs reduce the load transfer to the front tires during heavy braking this reduces the longitudinal pitch of the vehicle, resulting in improved overall braking efficiency.
The proportionate increase in spring rate also reduces body roll, which limits adverse suspension movement. This confines the suspension geometry to stay within parameters that enhance the tires contact patch relative to the road. The result is improved vehicle cornering and handling, because front and rear tire loading is more evenly distributed. Therefore, higher cornering limits can be achieved because the built-in understeer characteristics are reduced and provide for a more neutral yet safe handling vehicle.
These springs are manufactured utilizing Vogtland’s proprietary suspension grade “VVS” spring alloy. Vogtland’s VVS alloy is used exclusively in all our race spring applications. Vogtland’s racing springs are used by all of the most respected Nextel Cup Teams such as Dale Earnhardt Inc, Hendrick Motorsports, Robert Yates Racing, etc. By using “VVS” we can reduce the spring weight up to 30% over conventional suspension spring materials. This results in reduced unsprung weight and reduces the suspension inertia allowing the suspension to react more quickly to road surface irregularities, hence providing additional traction.
Technical Specifications:
Approximate Lowering:
• Front: 1.30” (32 mm)
• Rear: 1.18” (30mm)
Spring Type:
• Front: “Compound Rate” helical compression constrained by damper.
• Rear: “Progressive Rate” helical compression, constrained by chassis and axle.
Spring Configuration:
• Front: Top- reduced end open to fit seat. Bottom- tangential end open end gap
• Rear: Top- tangential end closed. Bottom- reduced end open to fit seat.
Spring Rate:
• Front: 336 lb./in. – 542 lb./in. working range 440 – 542 lb./in.
• Rear: 77 lb./in. – 228 lb./in. working range 183 – 228 lb./in.
Please note that I am not using this as a venue to sell our product, but at the same time I want to make sure that we provide the appropriate information about our products.
I hope that you find this information helpful in selecting a spring kit for your needs.
Richard Jonec
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 715
From: Brookville, PA
Re: Tokico HP Shocks
We absolutely agree that the Koni's are the best choice for springs of that rate. No doubt. And we've spoken (Richard and I, as well as Arlyn) about carrying those springs. I'd love too, as Richard has been nothing but nice.
However, I just can't sell something I don't believe is the best solution. If anyone is looking for rates like that, I think that Vogtland springs should be considered. While I find the fronts to be nice rates for street/performance driving, the rears are extremely high and rear springs have to work in conjunction with the fronts, but also with the swaybars, tires sizes, alignment specs. and so on.
To each his own, and I'd simply gain all the information you can so you can make an educated decision. I have my beliefs and data, others have theirs.
However, I just can't sell something I don't believe is the best solution. If anyone is looking for rates like that, I think that Vogtland springs should be considered. While I find the fronts to be nice rates for street/performance driving, the rears are extremely high and rear springs have to work in conjunction with the fronts, but also with the swaybars, tires sizes, alignment specs. and so on.
To each his own, and I'd simply gain all the information you can so you can make an educated decision. I have my beliefs and data, others have theirs.
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